tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post116154771329211815..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: What a friend we have in JesusElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1161868992720209462006-10-26T09:23:00.000-04:002006-10-26T09:23:00.000-04:00Okay, let me get this "straight" (as it were): Th...Okay, let me get this "straight" (as it were): <BR/><BR/>There are three PERSONS in one God, but only one does not have a gender because of your (ahem) understanding that only the Hebrew word uses gender, but in the Greek, Latin and German, it is neuter. <BR/><BR/>AND that, to have "gender" is not the same as "sex" - except, of course, for the other two persons of the Trinity.<BR/> <BR/>So, our anthromophorpic understanding of God in three persons can only allow male gender and sex but "not a chance" of having female gender or sex. <BR/> <BR/>Ah, wait. I think I remember this now. <BR/><BR/>Yes, it's coming back to me from my days in the Roman Catholic Church. <BR/><BR/>That dynamic is called "truth by blatant assertion."<BR/> <BR/>My, my, my but aren't you just in for a BIG surprise when you meet God face to face. <BR/><BR/>If I were you, I'd try to bring along some of those flowers they'll throw on your grave. <BR/><BR/>I understand the Holy Spirit loves flowers. <BR/><BR/>And, candy. <BR/><BR/>But, no perfume. She has her own sweet, sweet spirit about Her.<BR/> <BR/>Oh, by the way, I'm taking two points on your otherwise scholarly answer because you spelled "feminine" incorrectly.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1161833122076387822006-10-25T23:25:00.000-04:002006-10-25T23:25:00.000-04:00Jon, Thank you for the commentary on Creative v. C...Jon,<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Thank you for the commentary on Creative v. Creator and on Wisdom for Spirit.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Wisdom has been associated with the Spirit a few times. I know of at least two Church Fathers (Theopilus and Ireneaus) who do so. I'm not aware of any Scriptures that equate personified Wisdom (Sophia) with the Spirit. (Elizabeth, maybe you can fill me in.) The closest I can find is the role of wisdom in inpsiration or prophecy. Or a reference to the "spirit of wisdom" in Is 11:2--though this seems to me to be the spiritual gift rather than the Spirit himself.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>The identification of both Logos and Sophia with the second Person of the Trinity dominates in comparison. Likewise, many Church Fathers make that connection explicitly.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>We might say that there is always overlap in such terms. For example, the word "Savior" could be applied to each person of the Trinity, and indeed, all share in the work of salvation. But the donimant identification of "Savior" is with Jesus.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Also, I wouldn't say there is a need to shy away from shekinah, as long as it is explained. After all, what term could be more difficult to unfold than "Word"?<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Elizabeth,<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Regarding your correction that the Holy Spirit is "she", not a chance. Right gender, but wrong language.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>It is true that the Holy Spirit as a divine Person has gender, but no sex. The two Hebrew words used for spirit have a femine gender. Ruach is "she"; Nephesh is "she." In Greek, the word Spirit ("Pneuma") is neuter.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Our English words Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost come from the Latin and German sides, respectively. The Latin "Spiritus" is masculine. The German "Geist" is also masculine.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Thus, speaking correctly, the Holy Spirit would be "she" when speaking in Hebrew, "it" (though, a personal "it") when speaking in Greek, and "he" when speaking in English.Fr Timothy Matkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10794558184459092532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1161671796845394832006-10-24T02:36:00.000-04:002006-10-24T02:36:00.000-04:00I'll echo Elizabeth some here...Yes, I chose to re...I'll echo Elizabeth some here...<BR/><BR/>Yes, I chose to represent the Holy Spirit with the understanding of Her as Wisdom in this particular Trinitarian formula. I have always found myself particularly nurtured by an understanding of the Holy Spirit as Sophia. Here lately, I also enjoy the image of Her as a dancing Shekinah. But on this particular occasion I was trying to highlight our relationships with the divine through words that seem relevant to us in that they represent experiences that everyone has. You could argue that everyone has an experience of the Holy Spirit - I might even be tempted to argue it - but for those people in our congregations who are less "churched" and less comfortable with a lot of the common lingo of more actively spiritual people, Wisdom represents a tangible way of recognizing the Holy Spirit and the ways that She dances into our lives (consciousness?) from time to time. Shekinah, though delightfully approachable and active, requires a little more explaining for a lot of people and that wasn't the point in this case. If I had spent my time and energy explaining Shekinah it would have subverted my larger point.<BR/><BR/>The same kind of reasoning applies to why I chose "Creative" rather than "Creator". While the idea of a “Creator” may seem more distant to some people, creativity is something that we’ve all experienced at one point or another. Also, as soon as we say those typical, expected words, we have to expect that some baggage will come along with them. I often love those typical, expected words, but I think it is important to shake them up from time to time so that we can assist people in the ongoing spiritual task of re-imagining an irreducibly diverse God in new ways. It was my hope that "Creative" would help lighten some of the load of that baggage and allow people to begin, in a subtle way, to recognize the kind of closeness to which I claim to see God calling us.<BR/><BR/>You'll notice that in the second to last paragraph I used a much more traditional Trinitarian formula: "...in God, through Christ, and by the power of the Holy Spirit all are in." In that instance I wanted to use that baggage that people carry about the power of the Trinitarian God to lend strength to the claim that God is powerful enough to draw human communities away from their seemingly more natural behavior of division into a more challenging, and more rewarding pattern of behavior which gives us deeper relationships.<BR/><BR/>I hope this gives you some insight into my choices. Thanks for your interest.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>JonJon M. Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03827263102842339467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1161654718540223072006-10-23T21:51:00.000-04:002006-10-23T21:51:00.000-04:00I'll let Jon speak for himself (for he can - and h...I'll let Jon speak for himself (for he can - and he does quite eloquently and creatively).<BR/><BR/>I will say this: There is a great tradition in scripture which names the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Wisdom.<BR/><BR/>Alternatively, the Spirit of Wisdom has also been thought to be Jesus.<BR/><BR/>And, as I'm sure you know, the Hebrew word for Spirit is always asigned a feminine gender.<BR/><BR/>So, She was left out.<BR/><BR/>Not by a long shot.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1161650259004522272006-10-23T20:37:00.000-04:002006-10-23T20:37:00.000-04:00"God the Creative, God the Word, and God the Wisdo..."God the Creative, God the Word, and God the Wisdom"<BR/><BR/>I'm assuming that Mr. Richardson is using a trinitarian formula, using "Creative, Word, and Wisdom" in place of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."<BR/><BR/>The problem is that in this formula, Christ is mentioned twice and the Holy Spirit is left out. The Father is known as the Creator (I'm not sure why the adjective is used here). The Son is called the Word of God in the NT and the Wisdom of God in OT and NT. <BR/><BR/>But what about the Holy Spirit? Why is he left out? There are plenty of options: Paraclete, Comforter, Counselor, Spirit of Truth, Advocate. Even Dove, Wind, or Fire would tap into the symbolism of the Spirit.Fr Timothy Matkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10794558184459092532noreply@blogger.com