tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post116380387746440303..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: God's WillElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164293031579171752006-11-23T09:43:00.000-05:002006-11-23T09:43:00.000-05:00I found this book one of the few things I've read ...I found this book one of the few things I've read as challenging to me as feminism was in the early 1970s. Folks who think they can slough it off, categorize it with ease, should read it first. It is a mind-stretcher -- an experience I always consider a gift from the Creator.<BR/><BR/>BTW -- that said, I am not sure I agree with this book, whatever that might mean.janinsanfranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07548452260456734928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164147700789255152006-11-21T17:21:00.000-05:002006-11-21T17:21:00.000-05:00Hiram,There is a large body of evidence which alre...Hiram,<BR/><BR/>There is a large body of evidence which already exists which links domestic violence with direct quotes from the bible. <BR/><BR/>I'm quite sure most of it, like the book PROVERBS OF ASHES is anectdotal with theological statements by the authors. <BR/><BR/>Scientific studies? I'm sure I don't know. But, I wouldn't doubt it. The social science study/field of domestic violence is aobut 40 or 50 years old. <BR/><BR/>Government funds have been used to create shelters for battered women. I can't imagine there haven't been scientific studies done on the causes of domestic violence. <BR/><BR/>And, I can't imagine these studies having been done without Scriptural verses having been implicated.<BR/><BR/>I think what books like PROVERS OF ASHES accomplish is to begin the serious conversation about our firmly held doctrinal beliefs by challenging them with new, anecdotal information.<BR/><BR/>But, scientific studies? Hmmmm . . come to think of it, how has solid scientific evidence changed the way some folk view the Doctrine of Creation?<BR/><BR/>Isn't that part of the debate about Creationism, Intelligent Design and Evolution?<BR/><BR/>Can you think of one doctirne which has been changed because of scientific study? <BR/><BR/>I'm asking a question here, not arguing with you. I can't think of one.<BR/><BR/>Then again, it's a little after 5 PM on Tuesday before Thanksgiving and I'm rushing out to do my grocery shopping because our guest list went from 6 to 12 overnight.<BR/><BR/>Ah, such is the stuff of postmodern theological debate.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164146594262879462006-11-21T17:03:00.000-05:002006-11-21T17:03:00.000-05:00Elizabeth, what I was attempting to say was that i...Elizabeth, what I was attempting to say was that if you are going to change a major doctrine of the Christian faith and do so because you think that its current expression has negative consequences for people, you need to show, with a degree of scientific rigorousness, that the negative consequence you are addressing in fact exists, and exists for the reason you say it does.<BR/><BR/>Does a substutionary understanding of the atonement lead to widespread spousal/child abuse? If so, we should look at the doctrine again, or at how it is taught. But if it does not, then to change the doctrine for that reason is unreasonable.<BR/><BR/>Somewhere in my systematic theology notes, I have a list of the four types of language the New Testament uses to speak of the Cross and of what happened there. Two of those are the language of the law court and of the marketplace (this area speaks of "redemption"). I am going to have to dig those out, because all four are important to understanding, as much as we can, what God did and does through the death and resurrection of Jesus.Hiramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00845924600039905182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163981601667551302006-11-19T19:13:00.000-05:002006-11-19T19:13:00.000-05:00I love this quote from John Wesley, whom the Metho...I love this quote from John Wesley, whom the Methodist claim as their own, but who, as we all know, died a faithful Anglican: <BR/><BR/>"We do not have to think alike to love alike."<BR/><BR/>Amen!Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163914437104657092006-11-19T00:33:00.000-05:002006-11-19T00:33:00.000-05:00Ok, I'm slightly confused now. hiram's first ques...Ok, I'm slightly confused now. hiram's first question didn't look like it was about scripture at all; it looked more like a question of sociology or something. Does the book assume a positive correlation between holding some theory of atonement and engaging in domestic violence? I wouldn't be surprised if there is such a correlation, but things like that are probably best demonstrated.<BR/><BR/>JonJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13323740465436735706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163906982582923782006-11-18T22:29:00.000-05:002006-11-18T22:29:00.000-05:00Clement NG,Re: "I don't need to read PROVERBS . ....Clement NG,<BR/><BR/>Re: "I don't need to read PROVERBS . . ."<BR/><BR/>Just what the world needs: another person who has has made up his mind about what the questions are and how they are to be answered.<BR/><BR/>Lucky you. <BR/><BR/>Not so luck us.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163906343511877642006-11-18T22:19:00.000-05:002006-11-18T22:19:00.000-05:00Of course there are problems with the concept of a...Of course there are problems with the concept of atonement. Why else would we have so many theories?<BR/><BR/>And, no, I don't need to read PROVERBS OF ASHES before pointing to questions that all theologians, feminist or not, need to consider at some stage. Every moral philosopher reflects on the nature of rights and obligations. Every metaphysicist asks whether or not universals exist. Every systematic theologian examines the concept of atonement (and some, like Steven Finlan, abandon the concept altogether - but that move itself constitutes another theory!). <BR/><BR/>A feminist may find the whole idea of penal subsitution conducive to oppression and offer an alternative. But that is just what we expect when we ask "Why did Christ die?". Again, there is no single doctrine of atonement per se (although we often speak in this sense when we refer to a subject area). Rather, there are several <I>doctrines</I> (or theories) of atonement.Clement Nghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457589787216453522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163905397811491752006-11-18T22:03:00.000-05:002006-11-18T22:03:00.000-05:00Hiram,Is there any research that "difinitivly prov...Hiram,<BR/><BR/>Is there any research that "difinitivly proves" ANYTHING in scripture? <BR/><BR/>If you are pandering in certanties, you are not in the realm of faith and theology.<BR/><BR/>My real curiosity is why folk like you read blogs like mine - much less feel compelled to comment, especially when you have absolutely no intention of reading either PROVERBS OF ASHES or PROBLEMS WITH ATONEMENT. <BR/><BR/>You have already decide the answers to the questions you ask, so why ask them?<BR/><BR/>I can only imagine that it must be torture, pure torture for you to remain in the Episcopal Church.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for that, and I hope your pain comes to an end soon.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163904932057796132006-11-18T21:55:00.000-05:002006-11-18T21:55:00.000-05:00You say, "It is precisely what it says it is, disc...You say, "It is precisely what it says it is, discussing redemption and salvation through the lens of domestic violence and child abuse, and taking direct aim at the Doctrine of the Atonement and the idea of 'Suffering Servant' as part of the problem of violence against women and children."<BR/><BR/>Is there any research that definitively connects the teaching of substitutionary atonement and domestic violence? Or is this simply a case of an "urban legend," like the claim made a few years ago that Super Bowl Sunday was the day of the year with the highest incidence of domestic violence?<BR/><BR/>When I was in the Dio of SC some 20 years ago, Bp Allison said, "The liberals just can't stand the blood of Christ." He certainly seems to have hit the nail on the head. (Apparently, we don't need the blood of Christ to redeem the world, just the MDG's.)<BR/><BR/>Have taken the book of Hebrews out of your Bible, along with most of Romans and parts of 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and the epistles of Peter? Not to mention those parts of the Gospels where Jesus says that he has come "to give his life as a ransom for many"?Hiramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00845924600039905182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163858664877309612006-11-18T09:04:00.000-05:002006-11-18T09:04:00.000-05:00To Clement NG: Please read PROVERBS OF ASHES befo...To Clement NG: <BR/><BR/>Please read PROVERBS OF ASHES before deciding what 'feminists still need to explain.'<BR/><BR/>You might also find PROBLEMS WITH ATONEMENT by Stephen Finlan helpful to you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163824174864940752006-11-17T23:29:00.000-05:002006-11-17T23:29:00.000-05:00Kristen - you entered the ministry when you were b...Kristen - you entered the ministry when you were baptized. If you become ordained that will be your specialty but all of us are called to ministry.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163824000238988162006-11-17T23:26:00.000-05:002006-11-17T23:26:00.000-05:00There is no doctrine of atonement per se. Rather, ...There is no doctrine of atonement per se. Rather, there are <I>doctrines</I> of atonement, such as:<BR/><BR/>Socinian<BR/>Moral Influence<BR/>Ransom/Christus Victor<BR/>Governmental<BR/>Satisfaction<BR/>Penal Substitution<BR/><BR/>Feminist theologians who critique the traditional notions of Satisfaction or Penal Substitution still need to explain the significance of atonement - they have to answer the question "Why did Christ die?". But whatever they propose as an alrenative to the historical theories would be <I>another</I> doctrine of atonement.Clement Nghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457589787216453522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163813449221715482006-11-17T20:30:00.000-05:002006-11-17T20:30:00.000-05:00I throughly enjoyed the book, your lecture ( thank...I throughly enjoyed the book, your lecture ( thank you for your openess and honesty), and the conversation that followed. It gave me a whole new perspective that I will carry with me as I enter the ministry.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07926380820166703103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1163810415037855862006-11-17T19:40:00.000-05:002006-11-17T19:40:00.000-05:00Amen. I have to book on my desk in the pile to be...Amen. I have to book on my desk in the pile to be read. Guess I will move it to the top along with your other recommendation "Problems with Atonement."Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.com