tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post116450400228195977..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: A probably pointless (but not stupid) argument about the Bishop Elect of South CarolinaElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1165347734045622852006-12-05T14:42:00.000-05:002006-12-05T14:42:00.000-05:00South Carolina is the only diocese in the ECUSA to...South Carolina is the only diocese in the ECUSA to experience growth in Average Sunday Attendance (ASA) greater than their relative population growth for the 1992-2004 period. In my consistently reductionist view, it is the only diocese succeeding in the faithfulness to the Great Commission.<BR/><BR/>http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3fnty/index.html<BR/><BR/>Since they are doing it right, give them the Bishop they selected; they understand their mission. Lawrence+ might not be right for New Jersey, Nevada, or Southwest Florida, but he seems to fit the Church in South Carolina.Bateau Masterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641991475361553674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164918616478380412006-11-30T15:30:00.000-05:002006-11-30T15:30:00.000-05:00Paul, I certainly respect your right and desire to...Paul, I certainly respect your right and desire to oppose the consent to Mark Lawrence's election. Yet I question whether it's even possible for any bishop to represent the views of an entire diocese given the diversity of views held in TEC.Conradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103611558817718458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164854004320207142006-11-29T21:33:00.000-05:002006-11-29T21:33:00.000-05:00As a parishoner in the Diocese of South Carolina I...As a parishoner in the Diocese of South Carolina I strongly urge members of the standing committee to not consent to Mark Lawrence's election as bishop. He does not represent the views of the entire diocese of South Carolina. Of course, I realize that one way or the other, either regular or irregularly, he will still be consecrated...it seems to be the way of leadership in this diocese to find what ever way possible to engage in strife and dissention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164833256327755462006-11-29T15:47:00.000-05:002006-11-29T15:47:00.000-05:00Yes, Weiwen, I know. I think we all have made som...Yes, Weiwen, I know. I think we all have made some very important points and have not succumbed to the "obfuscation by minutia" that is, in my opinion, the hallmark of any kind of conversation/dialogue with the neo-Puritan, quasi-Orthodox, evangelical Right.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for a good discussion.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164827226471886862006-11-29T14:07:00.000-05:002006-11-29T14:07:00.000-05:00Elizabeth, my comment wasn't directed at you. I ag...Elizabeth, my comment wasn't directed at you. I agree that heresy in its original sense simply means belief contrary to orthodox doctrine; sometimes, orthodox doctrine is wrong or needs refreshing, and here heresy is actually constructive.<BR/><BR/>I was simply frustrated that Christianity has been around for two thousand-ish years, and has made many positive contributions to human dignity, art, philosophical thought, etc, and yet some denominations won't share toys with some other denominations. Of course, then I think about the Crusades and the burning of suspected witches, and I realize that I was asking too much.<BR/><BR/>We went to war with Iraq based on false pretenses. Even if the pretenses were true, the legality of the decision was iffy. Our administration has expressed more regret at being caught than at lying. This is an awful, awful sin. If I regarded homosexuality as a sin, and I do not, then it surely would be a lesser sin than this. By the standards of the schismatics in our church, I should cut off all communion with them if they did not oppose, or worse supported, the war in Iraq. I am not willing to do so, because it serves us better to be in dialog over this issue and similar ones.<BR/><BR/>And on that basis, I agree that we should question seriously whether we ought to consent to Lawrence's election or not.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17851789276439393822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164816612290841122006-11-29T11:10:00.000-05:002006-11-29T11:10:00.000-05:00Nice to meet you Weiwen NG. I agree with you and ...Nice to meet you Weiwen NG. I agree with you and welcome your footprints on our sacred path. <BR/>About this ....<BR/>"Eastern Orthodox and other Eastern Christians are different from that for Protestants"... <BR/>Also known as Human Condition not to be confused with God's Divine Mystery! Differences divide and create Schism when humans practice the sin of 'I know God and you don't'. It is a very immature spirit that sees differences as either Good or Bad, Sacred or Evil, ah hem... yes, Orthodox or Heresy. <BR/>Let's pray for the mature growth of Christ as we all walk with our siblings on the sacred road to God. <BR/>Peace.Deborah Sproulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01722982660416977832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164811603013800262006-11-29T09:46:00.000-05:002006-11-29T09:46:00.000-05:00I couldn't agree more, Weiwen. The only point I w...I couldn't agree more, Weiwen. <BR/><BR/>The only point I was trying to make was that heresy is a very, very different matter than schism.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164810319318076782006-11-29T09:25:00.000-05:002006-11-29T09:25:00.000-05:00This whole business of who regards whose sacrament...This whole business of who regards whose sacraments as valid seems to be a childish squabble, blown up to epic proportions. When we come before God, I do not think God will be judging the validity of everyone's sacraments.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17851789276439393822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164692379615482242006-11-28T00:39:00.000-05:002006-11-28T00:39:00.000-05:00Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at th...Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University says this:<BR/><BR/> The rules for Eastern Orthodox and other Eastern Christians are different from that for Protestants, since the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox and Eastern priesthood and the common faith in the sacraments.<BR/><BR/>For this reason the Catholic Church admits them to Communion if they are unable to assist at their own liturgy. <BR/><BR/> Of those Eastern Churches not in communion with the Holy See, the directory says in No. 123: "Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for any Catholic for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick from a minister of an Eastern Church." <BR/><BR/>Here's the whole link:<BR/><BR/>http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur43.htmMuerkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00983180202172098977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164673750745443842006-11-27T19:29:00.000-05:002006-11-27T19:29:00.000-05:00I'm afraid the link to Thinking Anglicans, which c...I'm afraid the link to Thinking Anglicans, which contains additional links to essential reading, is wrong in the original post. The proper link is <A HREF="http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/001978.html" REL="nofollow">this one</A>.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164672259599115632006-11-27T19:04:00.000-05:002006-11-27T19:04:00.000-05:00Muerk, my brother or sister, you are sadly, irrefu...Muerk, my brother or sister, you are sadly, irrefutably but, I am certain, with all good intention to be sure but nonetheless, misinformed.<BR/><BR/>Again, you are counting the number of gnats that might dance on the head of a pin.<BR/><BR/>The issue is schism vs. heresy.<BR/><BR/>Heresy we can - and have, for centuries - live(d) with.<BR/><BR/>Schism is what is represented by the confirmation of Mark Lawrence's election as bishop of South Carolina.<BR/><BR/>That's as clear as the Iberian nose in the middle of my face,.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164671391120365302006-11-27T18:49:00.000-05:002006-11-27T18:49:00.000-05:00If you choose to consentyou may have to presentwhe...If you choose to consent<BR/>you may have to present<BR/>when he doesn't relent<BR/>in his promised dissent.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164661618949868602006-11-27T16:06:00.000-05:002006-11-27T16:06:00.000-05:00Sorry I wasn't clear in expressing myself. We both...Sorry I wasn't clear in expressing myself. We both believe each others Sacraments to be "real". I'm not sure of the theologicaly correct term, but what I'm thinking of is that when no Roman Catholic priest is available, a Roman Catholic may, under canon law, receive the Eucharist and receive absolution from an Orthodox priest. I couldn't do that with the Anglican Church.<BR/><BR/>I'm not disputing the big differences between the two churches, but I guess the biggest thing is that each has the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Also the seven Sacraments and apostolic succession.Muerkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00983180202172098977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164644916896925222006-11-27T11:28:00.000-05:002006-11-27T11:28:00.000-05:00I'm a Lay Leader of little power to influence or c...I'm a Lay Leader of little power to influence or control the work of any Bishop, however as a lifelong Episcopalian I hereby invoke the Cloud of Witnesses that cleared my path (one very vocal female!) on the Anglican faith walk. Thank you EK for bringing the scary evil demon<BR/>called "HERESY" to a well lit table of LOGIC. Thankfully the rhetoric dynamic of any Holy vs Heretic debate seems to dilute the power of true schism in "thinking Anglican" circles. Unfortunately, not all circles of debate are truly logical. Hence my determination to bring up the "H" word when some of the cloth/collar invoke it's power to divide. More to the point our Canons are the fruits of honorable minds and blessed hearts of those who seeded growing journey in our Anglican faith belief. Please, do all in your power to uphold the Episcopal Canons. It is death of ethics in the church to let one Bishop prance about in Canon Cloth while suffocating Christ's growth in the world.Deborah Sproulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01722982660416977832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164600751417644542006-11-26T23:12:00.000-05:002006-11-26T23:12:00.000-05:00Where did you get this information?Last time I che...Where did you get this information?<BR/><BR/>Last time I checked, the only sacrament of reciprocity between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant was baptism.<BR/><BR/>The Romans consider Orthodox ordination valid, but the Orthodox do not allow Romans to function as Orthodox priests. Absolutely not.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, just down the street at the local RC church, there is a former Polish Orthodox priest who had to "reliquish" his orthodox orders to be accepted as a Roman Priest, but, as Fr. Zig says, he can no longer function as an Orthodox priest because his Roman status is no longer recognized by his orthodox brethern.<BR/><BR/>In terms of Eucharist, the Orthodox will give non-orthodox "blessded bread" (RC or Prot) but not the Sacramental bread and wine. That is reserved only for the Orthodox. <BR/><BR/>Check it out.<BR/><BR/>The church universal has always been "by heresies distresed" - and probably always will - at least in my lifetime.<BR/><BR/>That's my point. Heresy is one thing. Schism is quite another.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Lawrence is not touting heresy. He's promising schism.<BR/><BR/>BIG difference.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164600682066863302006-11-26T23:11:00.000-05:002006-11-26T23:11:00.000-05:00I am about to go onto my diocese's Standing Commit...I am about to go onto my diocese's Standing Committee, which I believe has not yet considered this consent, so follow all of this carefully. Inerestingly, Vermont did not vote to consent to the election of Barbara Harris! My, how things changed a few years later -- for the good. LeeCaminantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16610142955176992982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164597921147782702006-11-26T22:25:00.000-05:002006-11-26T22:25:00.000-05:00However both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches ac...However both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches accept that the other has valid Sacraments, including Holy Orders. This is an important distinction as compared to the protestants.Muerkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00983180202172098977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164543778023344632006-11-26T07:22:00.000-05:002006-11-26T07:22:00.000-05:00Absolutely NO confusion on my part. Indeed, the Ro...Absolutely NO confusion on my part. Indeed, the Roman Church considers the Anglican church's theology to be heretical and Orthodox Church (you know, the REAL one), considers Roman theology to be heretical<BR/><BR/>It has ever been thus in "the church" (small 'c').Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164543718569710242006-11-26T07:21:00.000-05:002006-11-26T07:21:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1164515084094392212006-11-25T23:24:00.000-05:002006-11-25T23:24:00.000-05:00As president of the Standing Committee in Hawai`i,...As president of the Standing Committee in Hawai`i, I also take this quite seriously and hope you will pass on whatever reasons someone might have for consenting to Mark Lawrence's election.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15359869605366846107noreply@blogger.com