tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post1663438416484676361..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: I am a 'prisoner of hope'Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-74022947621458357512008-09-08T16:24:00.000-04:002008-09-08T16:24:00.000-04:00This is simply wonderfully powerfully said. You h...This is simply wonderfully powerfully said. You have struck exactly the right tone I think. I struggle with this so much, yet time and time again, I fundamentally cannot get past that I cannot choose for someone else and that God will address this issue with each of us. We are simply wrong to try to impress our choice on someone else. That said,I am in favor of every means to help women find other solutions to a most difficult situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-91610048312249574302008-09-07T21:35:00.000-04:002008-09-07T21:35:00.000-04:00Missy and Mary Sue, you make important points abou...Missy and Mary Sue, you make important points about the language and rhetoric of this discussion. Thanks so very much for your contributions. I am greatly enlightened and empowered by them. Thanks again.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-53946400276063277972008-09-07T21:27:00.000-04:002008-09-07T21:27:00.000-04:00Most of what you say I agree with and you speak yo...Most of what you say I agree with and you speak your position very well.<BR/><BR/>The only thing that I get caught on is the use of "moral relativism"--a catchphrase and finger pointing pivot among conservatives, especially in the RC.<BR/><BR/>I think you can say all of this without going into that sort of "what's right for me may be wrong for someone else," game. Abortion is never "right" in that way. Sometimes and for some people, it's just the only way. And that is what we have to acknowledge with grace and compassion.<BR/><BR/>I apologize if I seem overly critical. It's just that I've been struggling with how to address accusations of moral relativism from my fellow Catholics and I want to be sensitive about not using it in my own arguments.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing this.Missyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041804780968204993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-55038812088484230522008-09-07T17:45:00.000-04:002008-09-07T17:45:00.000-04:00Thank you! I too stand with you and value the arti...Thank you! I too stand with you and value the articulate position you posted. Thank you.Elaine C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02094641269585924122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-28963524129264348832008-09-07T16:46:00.000-04:002008-09-07T16:46:00.000-04:00God bless you for your witness, Lisbeth.So many of...God bless you for your witness, Lisbeth.<BR/><BR/>So many of us agree with what you've said, yet are cowed into silence, by the charges of "Baby Killers!" and the like (Truthfully: I would like to have a <I>Prayerfully Pro-Choice</I> sticker on my car, but am afraid to. If someone "decided to express a contrary opinion" w/ a baseball bat, I could not afford the repairs :-0)JCFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14516376500318551838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88786451166985674562008-09-07T16:29:00.000-04:002008-09-07T16:29:00.000-04:00I find I'm 'minded of the repeated line from the f...I find I'm 'minded of the repeated line from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, wherein the Pirate's Code is referred to as "more of a guideline than anything else." <BR/><BR/>Also, in the words of my military-trained uncles and my roleplaying-geek friends, "No battle plan has ever survived engagement with the Enemy."<BR/><BR/>I love hypothetical situations as much as the next overeducated liberal arts fuzzy science major, but I really, really, desperately wonder what spun-sugar ivory tower cotton wool and bubble-wrapped world some of these folks live in. I wonder if that is part of the reason that some people (liberals, conservatives, and all other sides of the political spectrum, none of y'all are getting off easy on this) seem to demand consensus-- because anything less would shatter their very fragile, 'safe' world. <BR/><BR/>But watch out, ye livers of safe lives who proclaim you follow Jesus. Jesus has an annoying tendency to shatter illusions of safety, to drag you kicking and screaming into the firefight, to take business as usual and kick over the tables, and chase you right out of your safety zones snapping a whip at your heels the whole way.<BR/><BR/>This ain't no prophecy, children. This is personal experience. This is me testifyin' on a Sunday afternoon.Mary Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14565978226362711401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-11476254398589123502008-09-07T15:01:00.000-04:002008-09-07T15:01:00.000-04:00I, too, want to commend you for this piece. It ex...I, too, want to commend you for this piece. It expresses well the complexities of the issues.<BR/><BR/>I do differ with you with regard to knowledge and facts. They are acquired and interpreted by human beings and are fallible. If I’m not mistaken, there’s a legal opinion/law on when life begins and it’s not based on a scientific consensus but on the majority opinion of judges, which is how things work in the USA. Also, facts are not the only source of information. <BR/><BR/>My point is that this is not a matter of an opinion versus an axiomatic truth.<BR/><BR/>A law or canon that says abortion is legal does not in any way deny a woman the choice of carrying a child to term. It seems to me to be a reasonable way of facing a very difficult and highly charged issue.<BR/><BR/>DianeDianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04011100656498675753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-10588779668864576472008-09-07T01:29:00.000-04:002008-09-07T01:29:00.000-04:00Yes, Rev. Kaeton, you've spoken well here. I rela...Yes, Rev. Kaeton, you've spoken well here. I relate to others who flinch whenever they hear the term pro-abortion. Who on the planet is FOR abortion?<BR/><BR/>On this and many other controversial subjects, we really must not allow extremists (on any side of any debate) to marginalize the discussion by consigning their opponents to small boxes of their own creation. Because many blog conversations are characterized by this, I rarely will comment. Neither side is listening to the other anyway.<BR/><BR/>I had to comment here to thank you for articulating yourself so well. If all of us could argue this gracefully, we'd save ourselves a great deal of needless strife and division.Prairie Soulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467436724804113877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-45910573502102476442008-09-07T00:48:00.000-04:002008-09-07T00:48:00.000-04:00Not to mention if we went back to the "Bad old day...Not to mention if we went back to the "Bad old days" before Roe, the ER's would be showing the upshot of that decision--women who, in desperation, try to abort by "other methods" and end up becoming septic.<BR/><BR/>Do the clergy on the Fox News side of the aisle have any plans as to how they intend to minister to these women and their familes?Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-14877871528886094802008-09-06T22:25:00.000-04:002008-09-06T22:25:00.000-04:00Elizabeth- this is brilliant. I want to send it to...Elizabeth- this is brilliant. I want to send it to a friend of mine from church, but then I would be outed from my FranIam identity!<BR/><BR/>We had a long talk about this topic yesterday.<BR/><BR/>And I have really been struggling every time I hear a Republican type saying the "pro-abortion" people. <BR/><BR/>Like you, nothing could be farther from the truth for me.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your words and wisdom always.Franhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07181529277715646835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-17355902585347641662008-09-06T18:31:00.000-04:002008-09-06T18:31:00.000-04:00Dear Elizabeth, thank you for your post. I am doin...Dear Elizabeth, thank you for your post. <BR/><BR/>I am doing a placement in my local hospital and have sat with a consultant caring for mothers who have had to terminate for terrible medical reasons. These babies would not have survived, had they gone full term. The mothers are devastated by the choice they had to make. For many they just wanted affirmation that they had been mothers, albeit for a short time. <BR/><BR/>I will never forget a photo I was shown, the look of pure love on the face of a mother cradling the child whose life she had no choice but to end.<BR/><BR/>Before my placement I would have said all abortion is wrong but now I know it's more complicated, and pastorally more difficult, than that.<BR/><BR/>God BlessKen Eckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514247943547544303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-35733040144862030882008-09-06T18:16:00.000-04:002008-09-06T18:16:00.000-04:00Thank you for these posts. Sometimes we do need ot...Thank you for these posts. Sometimes we do need others to articulate what we know in our hearts but have never been able to put so eloquently. <BR/><BR/>And as for the brick bats - I knew a nun who said that it wasn't til she'd been spat at walking along a street that she realised there was a point to wearing a habit (ditto dog collar). It's about putting your head above the parapet and speaking the truth. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for speaking out, and for including your truth.Ostrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14706909762479956228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-92138488103985111142008-09-06T17:47:00.000-04:002008-09-06T17:47:00.000-04:00Thanks for coming by, Ms. Katie. You are DA Schwar...Thanks for coming by, Ms. Katie. You are DA Schwartz-Bomb!Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-30716558180675287012008-09-06T17:46:00.000-04:002008-09-06T17:46:00.000-04:00Hi, Grace,Well, there is "strong disagreement" fro...Hi, Grace,<BR/><BR/>Well, there is "strong disagreement" from a very vocal minority.<BR/><BR/>If that anti-abortion position were in the majority, the votes would show that. Each time this vote has come up, since the 70's, our present position has prevailed.<BR/><BR/>I hasten to add that being in the minority does not make one wrong, it just makes one in the minority. And, perhaps, angry, but not wrong.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50935080773334424132008-09-06T16:09:00.000-04:002008-09-06T16:09:00.000-04:00I could not agree with your position more!! I wor...I could not agree with your position more!! I worked in Title X, Family Planning, Clinics for many years. I saw these decisions play out many times in my career.<BR/><BR/>Women need support, care, factual honest information and counseling to make decision when a pregnancy is unwanted. They do not need judgement. The decision to have an abortion or give a child up for adoption is a difficult decision. You are correct in saying in either case the woman grieves. These decisions should be made by the woman not for her.<BR/><BR/>There are many people in the Episcopal Church who agree with you. I guess they are just not as vocal as the anti choice crowd.Kay & Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04244257765709660605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-89929404981197409972008-09-06T15:40:00.000-04:002008-09-06T15:40:00.000-04:00Mother Kaeton,I have absolutely no doubt about you...Mother Kaeton,<BR/><BR/>I have absolutely no doubt about your sincerity, and caring in all this. And, I have to agree with you that these personal attacks are very wrong.<BR/><BR/>Folks need to focus in discussion of the issues at hand, rather than trying to be the Holy Spirit of God, judging the motives, and intention of others. People can disagree, and certainly not be regarded as the enemy. <BR/><BR/>But, I have to agree with the concern expressed with those who disagree with the position of our church.<BR/><BR/>It seems reasonable to me that if there is strong disagreement, and we have not reached anything close to a consensus together, then it would show wisdom for the church to refrain from officially supporting abortion rights organizations.<BR/><BR/> We need to simply keep praying, continuing the discussion together, and take action in areas of concern where we do find common ground. There's plenty of ways to do that.<BR/><BR/>I mean suppose it had been the other way around, and TEC had ended up supporting a strong pro-life organization? How would you be feeling then?<BR/><BR/>I can tell you that I'm absolutely grieved by our association, and feel that it's totally wrong.<BR/><BR/>Respectfully,<BR/>Your sister,<BR/>Grace.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-29309029375106911132008-09-06T14:37:00.000-04:002008-09-06T14:37:00.000-04:00Thanks, Elizabeth. Abortion is an incredibly toug...Thanks, Elizabeth. <BR/><BR/>Abortion is an incredibly tough decision for a woman to make -- even after confering with priest, doctor, potential father, family etc, it is fundamentally her decision. And yes, it should involve deep moral issues.<BR/><BR/>But, dammit -- women have been making tough moral decisions ever since there have BEEN women. One would assume they are capable of doing so.<BR/><BR/>Yes: Pro life and pro choice.susankayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513759507628166408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84064453341231243682008-09-06T13:15:00.000-04:002008-09-06T13:15:00.000-04:00PS: LOVE the image :)PS: LOVE the image :)Katie Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00502953107364624296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-70482173315241566762008-09-06T13:14:00.000-04:002008-09-06T13:14:00.000-04:00Gosh, I love this post, E. So much of what you sai...Gosh, I love this post, E. So much of what you said resonated hard for me. <BR/><BR/>This line in particular "This is still a democracy, not a theocracy." sums it up beautifully (for me).<BR/><BR/>People (not you) think that when a woman chooses to have an abortion, she makes that decision cavalierly and without contemplation. They are wrong. It's never an easy decision to make. <BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself when I went through it at 21, I knew it was the right decision. I grieved <I>hard</I> and felt a deep sadness because I was stopping a process. That said, I never <I>ever</I> regret my decision. It was the right choice. <BR/><BR/>I'm so happy you wrote this. I support you 100%!Katie Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00502953107364624296noreply@blogger.com