tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post2016534481241557171..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: Roe v. Wade: 1973Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-49062613843459053902009-01-28T00:53:00.000-05:002009-01-28T00:53:00.000-05:00Paul A. Wrote:"Roe v. Wade was not about a cr...Paul A. Wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Roe v. Wade was not about a criminal defendant trying to get out of jail. It was about a pregnant woman seeking an injunction against the anti-abortion law so that she could get an abortion."<BR/><BR/>In fairness, it should at least be mentioned in this discussion that the real Jane Roe, Norma McCorvey, has since come to repudiate her involvement in the abortion movement and claims, in her own testimony, that she was used by her lawyers as a pawn in a legal battle. She speaks quite loudly for herself and has since written two books about her journey. She entered the Roman Catholic Church in 1998 and has her own ministry.<BR/>"It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the "right" to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, "Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn't have been possible." Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes."<BR/><BR/>To follow her journey, whether you pity, disagree with or support her go here: http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/normamaster.htm<BR/><BR/>Paul A, says:<BR/> "There is always room for education."<BR/>I don't deny this. What I am trying to say, based on my experience working with at-risk youth for 16 years and teaching comprehensive sex education is that I personally gave out tons of condoms to HIV+ youth who were highly educated about virus transmission, how to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STD transmission. The majority still choose, like most teens,to have unprotected sex. <BR/>Therefore, I think we need to swith from knowledge ABOUT birth control (at least in the USA) to getting these birth control and sex educated beloved ones to USE them. This article supports what most of us already know:<BR/><BR/>"As for sex education's impact on condom use, Brown notes that knowledge is only part of the equation when it comes to adolescents' engaging in risky behaviors. Kids are taught over and over again to use seat belts and not to smoke, he points out, yet they continue to ignore those lessons in droves.<BR/><BR/>So here's my proposal: Let's get the people who do marketing for cigarettes and hyper-caffeinated soft drinks to put their might behind marketing condoms. If condoms were presented as fun and cool, wouldn't kids be more likely to at least buy them, and perhaps even to use them?<BR/><BR/>You tell me."<BR/><BR/>source: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkup/2008/09/why_teens_dont_use_condoms.html<BR/><BR/>For those who think that being pro-life is for religious folk, less enlightend Christians or out right Fundamentalists, please see:<BR/><BR/>The Athiest & Agnostic Pro-Life League<BR/>Pagans for Life<BR/>and Feminists for Life<BR/><BR/>Paul A. wrote: <BR/>"This "life begins at conception" line was introduced in the late nineteenth-early twentieth century by revisionists. The scientific position is that life begins about 3.8 billion years ago; everything since is mere variation."<BR/><BR/>Their is no "scientific position" and more than there is the "Christian position". There ARE "scientific positionS" as there are widely varying "Christian positionS".<BR/><BR/>For a non-biased and well done presententaion of the earliest held positions (pre-Christian) up to current "scientific positionS" see here: "When Does Human Life Begin?" (from a widely used, award-winning, college level developmental biology textbook)<BR/>http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162<BR/><BR/>Finally, Paul A. wrote:<BR/>"And pregnancy begins at implantation. And the person in whom the implantation takes place is the one person affected by that. And she should choose, in my view, what if anything to do about it, not anyone else."<BR/><BR/>I side with Mother Theresa on this one: ""It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you live as you wish"<BR/><BR/>Good debate!<BR/><BR/>P.S. My letters in caps. are meant to be italicized, but being new to blogging, I have not yet figured out how one does this.Br. Christopher Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607342679823358880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-7325317262156625702009-01-26T22:30:00.000-05:002009-01-26T22:30:00.000-05:00A couple of points:Roe v. Wade was not about a cri...A couple of points:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._wade" REL="nofollow">Roe v. Wade</A> was not about a criminal defendant trying to get out of jail. It was about a pregnant woman seeking an injunction against the anti-abortion law so that she could get an abortion. It may be that following the decision imprisoned doctors may have sought to have sentences reopened, but I am not aware of any.<BR/><BR/>Br. Christopher writes, "The problem is not education, at least not anymore." But consider that the administration just passed was strongly committed to restricting contraceptive education at home and abroad. Some have mourned the end of that policy. There is always room for education.<BR/><BR/>He also asks, "Finally, I've never understood why we call an unborn child a baby when it's being carried by a mother that wants her/him but a fetus when a mother doesn't want it." Not everyone does this. A fetus is a fetus. A baby is a baby. Calling something other than what it is is either metaphor or propaganda.<BR/><BR/>Rick Allen notes that under pre-<I>Roe</I> New Mexico law the aborting woman "was subject to no punishment for an illegal abortion." Other than the death penalty, in far too many cases.<BR/><BR/>Göran Koch-Swahne corectly points out that the traditional position of the Church drew the line at "quickening:. This was held to take place at around the end of the first trimester (coincidence?) and represented ensoulment: Abortion prior to thie time was only a venial sin but a mortal sin thereafter. This "life begins at conception" line was introduced in the late nineteenth-early twentieth century by revisionists. The scientific position is that life begins about 3.8 billion years ago; everything since is mere variation.<BR/><BR/>And pregnancy begins at implantation. And the person in whom the implantation takes place is the <B>one person</B> affected by that. And she should choose, in my view, what if anything to do about it, not anyone else.Paul (A.)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07543357437252555101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-63462620750925767782009-01-26T21:39:00.000-05:002009-01-26T21:39:00.000-05:00Hey, I'll give ya an Amen, and a thank you Jesus!!...Hey, I'll give ya an Amen, and a thank you Jesus!! :)Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-20377887504409231222009-01-25T21:00:00.000-05:002009-01-25T21:00:00.000-05:00I really think this has to do with the tone set by...I really think this has to do with the tone set by this new administration. YES WE CAN is absolutely infectious - on so very many levels.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-23370894982703176802009-01-25T20:46:00.000-05:002009-01-25T20:46:00.000-05:00You definitely get a WOO HOO from me. This is a w...You definitely get a WOO HOO from me. This is a wonderful conversation from differing points of view.Kay & Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04244257765709660605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-5707145107726209902009-01-25T20:04:00.000-05:002009-01-25T20:04:00.000-05:00Deo Gratias!!!And (so far) no one has left the deb...Deo Gratias!!!<BR/>And (so far) no one has left the debate to start a new church.<BR/>Civil discourse and agreeable disagreement are not lost arts.Br. Christopher Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607342679823358880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-65639874538190278212009-01-25T16:27:00.000-05:002009-01-25T16:27:00.000-05:00I just want us to pay attention to something here:...I just want us to pay attention to something here: We have disagreed with each other, but we have done so with respect and dignity - and, often, with eloquence. But mostly, while we have disagreed on methodology, we have agreed that we need to keep abortion safe and legal while working to reduce the number of abortions performed in this country.<BR/><BR/>This, my friends, is nothing short of a miracle.<BR/><BR/>Can I just get me a "Woo hoo!"?<BR/><BR/>Or, at least, an 'Amen! Thank you Jesus!"?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-17053379234887164822009-01-25T15:17:00.000-05:002009-01-25T15:17:00.000-05:00Thank you, Mother Kaeton. But, I don't feel that I...Thank you, Mother Kaeton. But, I don't feel that I am really taking a risk sharing. I sense the love of the Lord in everyone here, and I know we are all grappling with this together. Our lives are hidden in Christ with God.<BR/><BR/>Brother Christopher I"m especially blessed by your comments. My prayer for you is that God will open a path for you to adopt that special child.<BR/><BR/>My heart is to maintain a consistent life ethic, and I have to be honest, and say that it is my progressive Christian friends that have very much challenged my thinking in this, and have shown me some inconsistencies in my own life, and thinking.<BR/><BR/>I would not make all abortion illegal, particularly very early on, or when medically necessary.<BR/><BR/> But, unlike many here, I do think we need a fresh look a Roe vs. Wade, and would want to see the legal parameters tightened. Of course, I also feel that we need to do everything possible to show compassion, and support women in poverty, and in crisis pregnancies.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-90646225511282195722009-01-25T08:51:00.001-05:002009-01-25T08:51:00.001-05:00A final thought.When I was hospitalized for AIDS r...A final thought.<BR/>When I was hospitalized for AIDS related anxiety (I could not accept, cope with or beleive my diagnosis)we were having a support group meeting which always opened with a meditation from one of the wonderful Hazeldon (sp?) series books most often used by folk in recovery. The daily meditation closed with this affirmation:<BR/>"I forgive myself for accepting sex when I needed love."<BR/>I almost fell out of my chair because of the resonance I had with those words. That was the source of my sorrow. From there forward I began to accept and to live with AIDS instead of see myself as dying from AIDS. It was an Epiphany like the hard fall of roses on an empty grave. The clarity was my Damascus road.<BR/>I remember moving deeper into that awareness and thinking that if I had been a woman I would have most likely been pregnant several times already. What would I do? Probably, I would be a welfare mom but who can say for sure.<BR/>What I mean to say by all of this is for how many women with an unplanned pregnancy would that affirmation ring true? I think many.<BR/>Love is what we were made for and some of us are/were dying for it so much that we settle for loves too small and risk all kinds of dangers.<BR/>Most secular awareness programs won't/can't get to the blood and root of the hunger. But the Church can.<BR/>In the end, to my way of thinking,<BR/>"The greatest thing we ever learn is just to love and be loved in return"Br. Christopher Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607342679823358880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1883160719955866072009-01-25T08:51:00.000-05:002009-01-25T08:51:00.000-05:00Thank you for sharing here, Br. Christopher. I th...Thank you for sharing here, Br. Christopher. I think it's important to note that not all who identify as "liberal" or "progressive" are in lock step on this issue. My opinion closely mirrors your own.<BR/><BR/>JCF -- I'm not suggestion abortion be outlawed altogether. However, I do suggest that something be done to avoid the abuse of abortion as a tool for irresponsible people. I'm all for birth control, alleviation of poverty, education, affordable day care, helping women escape from abusive situations, etc. However, because I truly believe that life begins at conception (my belief is not based on science, but is more of a spiritual/religious belief - though one could scientifically argue the matter as well - even a zygote is a form of human life), I do tend to see abortion as a form of murder. <BR/><BR/>So honestly, why not create a limit to non-medically necessary abortions? Women who need an abortion for medical reasons could have any number of them. <BR/><BR/>I went to a meeting yesterday (had nothing to do with abortion, this was just coincidence) where a woman spoke about her experience working at an abortion clinic. She was trying to conceive at that same time. She was astounded (and I dare say sickened) by the number of women coming in to get late term abortions in particular. Women came in at 36 weeks wanting to end their pregnancies. Of course, she had to explain they could not get an abortion at that time, but would have to choose adoption.<BR/><BR/>What is so wrong with people having to face responsibility for their actions? After two or three abortions, don't you think a woman would have "figured it out" so to speak? And yeah, the guy, too? If a woman killed three human lives outside of her womb, she would be held responsible. I would think that, after three abortions, sterilization would be appropriate. I'm not talking about throwing anyone in jail, but about setting some limits on irresponsible behavior that harms the life and health of mother and baby.<BR/><BR/>Multiple abortions can also cause much harm to the woman's body. Should we not be concerned about that as well?Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-13641974548639232992009-01-25T08:45:00.000-05:002009-01-25T08:45:00.000-05:00"I also find that the willingness of so many of th..."I also find that the willingness of so many of the pro-life side to ignore what happens to children after birth, including abuse, starvation, the death penalty, unjust war, and other issues of, simply, LIFE, makes it hard for me to see their "pro-life" stand as part of a consistent thread of LIFE."<BR/><BR/>I agree entirely, but would point out that it is a sword that cuts both ways. Why is it any less inconsistent to oppose those atrocities, but care nothing for the millions who have not been allowed to live till birth?<BR/><BR/>Why, I wonder, is a consistent ethic of life so difficult to maintain?rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-65631833801599410982009-01-25T06:40:00.000-05:002009-01-25T06:40:00.000-05:00In fairness, IT, I think that's what Br. was doing...In fairness, IT, I think that's what Br. was doing - saying that he doesn't want abortion to become illegal, but stating his views in opposition to abortion in certain situations. At least, that's how I heard him.<BR/><BR/>It's hard, when you feel so emotionally attached to your position, not to hear anything that comes even close to a compromise of your - or any woman's rights - as a threat. But Br. was simply stating his opinion while stating that he did not believe in making abortion illegal.<BR/><BR/>I know. He also said "three strikes and you're out" sounded good to him. I heard that as musing. I don't like the sound of that either, but he wasn't proposing that this become the law. He was just expressing his revulsion to multiple abortion / abortion as birth control. <BR/><BR/>Feel free to weigh in, Br.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-2683864210675182042009-01-25T02:34:00.000-05:002009-01-25T02:34:00.000-05:00Br Christopher, the Catholic church opposes birth ...Br Christopher, the Catholic church opposes birth control. It is a logical inconsistancy to oppose abortion while simultaneously opposing the means to avoid abortion.<BR/><BR/>And no one has address the Nicaragua experience (or the US pre-Roe): <BR/><BR/>Criminalizaing abortion will not stop it. It will instead kill women in illegal back-alley efforts to terminate unwanted pregnancies. <BR/><BR/>Is that acceptable? Apparently so.<BR/><BR/>So, back to the days pre-Roe of unwiling mothers strapped to the tables for delivery. Charming picture, isn't it? This womb for hire. Or rather, this womb as property of the state.<BR/> <BR/>I also find that the willingness of so many of the pro-life side to ignore what happens to children after birth, including abuse, starvation, the death penalty, unjust war, and other issues of, simply, LIFE, makes it hard for me to see their "pro-life" stand as part of a consistent thread of LIFE.<BR/><BR/>Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Feel free to advocate your views. But you have no right to force your views on any free individual who does not share your religion, and prevent her from having full authority over her own body.<BR/><BR/>ITIThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-38463283738731271972009-01-24T19:15:00.000-05:002009-01-24T19:15:00.000-05:00Great question, Rick. Anybody know the answer?Great question, Rick. Anybody know the answer?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-26106140036580882182009-01-24T18:05:00.000-05:002009-01-24T18:05:00.000-05:00"And, what would the punishment be if the woman wa..."And, what would the punishment be if the woman was found to have lied about the reasons for her abortion? Would it be considered a capital offense?"<BR/><BR/>I am not sure about the old abortion laws in all fifty states, but I have looked at New Mexico's old abortion statute, and it carried no penalty for the mother. She was considered as much a victim as her child, and was subject to no punishment for an illegal abortion.<BR/><BR/>It does raise a question that I've always been curious about. Roe v. Wade transformed what had been a crime into a constitutional right. Presumably anyone imprisoned at the time as a result of an abortion could no longer be incarcerated. How many people, I wonder, were in fact released when Roe was decided--if any?rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-49350751561223087212009-01-24T18:02:00.000-05:002009-01-24T18:02:00.000-05:00Thanks for dropping by today, Br. I'm not where y...Thanks for dropping by today, Br. I'm not where you are, but I do understand your point. For me, bottom line, it's a human right's issue, too - where we differ is that I believe the human with the rights is a woman.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the pictures on the internet are not pretty. Those pictures are placed their by "Talibangelicals" who want to elicit the exact reaction you had. <BR/><BR/>Let me tell you about the pictures they won't show you: Women and children living in poverty. The uterus of women that have been punctured or infected by botched abortions. Women who have bled to death or died from sepsis from poorly done abortions.<BR/><BR/>Foster care and adoption? I speak as a former foster care parent as well as the adoptive mother of a profoundly retarded, multiply handicapped special needs child. Throwing money at foster care and adoption won't make it better. Needs lots more regulation.<BR/><BR/>I'm neither judging nor condemning your, Br., but this is a much more complex problem than foster care or adoption.<BR/><BR/>Stats prove that the 'wanton youth' who have multiple abortions are not the source of the problem.<BR/><BR/>Let's deal with the causative factors: Poverty. Unemployment. Poor educational standards. Alcoholism. Drugs. Divorce.<BR/><BR/>And, oh, a little thing called 'sexism' which causes women to have lower pay, higher unemployment, poorer education, and is more adversely affected by alcohol, drugs and divorce.<BR/><BR/>As people of good faith across the religious and political spectrum have come to agree, we can reduce the number of abortions done in a year by working together to deal with the causative factors. <BR/><BR/>That's where I'm with you, Br.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-3441165921211065302009-01-24T17:34:00.000-05:002009-01-24T17:34:00.000-05:00I am an Affirming Catholic, Integrity member who i...I am an Affirming Catholic, Integrity member who is generally progressive on most social issues but not this one.<BR/>I consider abortion the ultimate form of discrimination against the most vulnerable. To my way of thinking human rights begin in the womb.<BR/>I have worked in social services for many years and have worked with clients, who were very savvy about birth control and were given free condoms and other forms of birth control regularly. The problem is not education, at least not anymore.<BR/>The problem is getting people to USE the birth control. I worked with many at-risk youth, some of whom had more than three abortions. The main reason I heard from these young women was that a.) they were going to go to college one day b.) a baby would affect their lifestyle (i.e. "I just want to have fun and party for awhile. I'm gonna have a career one day but now I just want to be free and experience eveything!"<BR/>Also, do a little looking and you will see that couples/singles/glbt families take out adds in Rolling Stone and all other kinds and types of magazines and newspapers. There are women and men dying to be parents, agencies that will pay ALL the mother's expenses, enroll her in college or vocationsl school, teach her life skills, and help her get a job, and apartment and they follow up for 5 years after the birth and offer lifetime assistance in some cases i.e. Edna Gladney Center.<BR/>I do not support making abortion illegal (though I would support limits...three strikes and your out seems more than generous to me!) I only wish we spent as much on education and resource allotment towards really showing women the beatiful choice of adoption. <BR/>In my younger years I supported abortion strongly. Then, I saw (thanks to the internet) several actual abortions performed and my heart broke open with sorrow. They weren't blobs of jelly but teeny tiny babies.<BR/>Finally, I've never understood why we call an unborn child a baby when it's being carried by a mother that wants her/him but a fetus when a mother doesn't want it. <BR/>Also, why do we grieve with, support and comfort women who have miscarriages if they are not seen as unborn children? Current therapeutic practice is for these mothers to name their miscarried babies.<BR/>I recently joined Democrats for Life. They are not trying to repeal any abortion laws but too make good on the often claimed "safe, legal and RARE." and they support adoption and issues of poverty and education to help women have other viable options.<BR/>My heart aches for a child to love and care for. I hope to go through the foster care process and eventually adopt a medically fragile child. But I make very little money and adoption is expensive. I will be happy if I can just foster a child and be Mr. Rogers meets Aunti Mame!<BR/>I'm not judging or condemning anyone who is pro-choice but my belief is that human rights start when human life begins.<BR/>For any who are interested check out the GLBT pro-life group (they are NOT fundies either): the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians.<BR/>Bottom line: promote foster care and adoption (with money and awareness) with at least the same commitment and attention we give to reproductive rights.Br. Christopher Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607342679823358880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50975227731571174002009-01-24T12:39:00.000-05:002009-01-24T12:39:00.000-05:00You make some excellent points about how our tax m...You make some excellent points about how our tax money is used against our better judgment or even our will. I know many people who have refused to pay taxes as a protest against the war. Indeed, I know someone who learned that part of the taxes we used to pay to Ma Bell went to fund the Viet Nam war and got their service cut off because they refused to pay it. They took it to court, made the phone company reinstate their service while it was in litigation, and after 10 or 12 years won the case.<BR/><BR/>I would love to know if there are those who are so opposed to abortion that they would do the same thing.<BR/><BR/>I think this will be an ongoing conversation, Fran. I hope we don't stop. We keep each other accountable and, as you say, we grow and learn.<BR/><BR/>I have not met a woman who has had more than one abortion, and I've been at this for more years than I care to admit. I don't think it's as common as some would like to think. Even so, it happens more often than I would like to think. More than once is too much for me. <BR/><BR/>But then again, it's not about me. And, that, ultimately, is the point.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67400704380061124332009-01-24T11:40:00.000-05:002009-01-24T11:40:00.000-05:00I worked in Family Planning Clinics seeing patient...I worked in Family Planning Clinics seeing patients on a daily basis for 34 years. During all that time I saw only one woman that was using abortion as a method of birth control. I, too, find using abortion as a method of birth control repugnant.<BR/><BR/>I believe that women who do make the choice to use abortion as a method of bc may have deeper issues going on in their lives. However, I would not limit the number of times a woman could use abortion as distasteful as that might be to me personally. I do believe that the women who have repeated abortions are rare.Kay & Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04244257765709660605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-59837962443390924062009-01-24T09:57:00.000-05:002009-01-24T09:57:00.000-05:00Perhaps late to this portion but I must weigh in o...Perhaps late to this portion but I must weigh in on this matter to Grace, whom I have come to know and respect in the comments of many blogs. We may disagree on much my sister, but so we grow and learn. <BR/><BR/>My words are not meant to antagonize you or anyeone else but...<BR/><BR/>I am wondering how you feel about your tax dollars that are spent on wanton war and destruction as well as those that were used for torture?<BR/><BR/>What about the tax dollars that are used to bail out companies that result in large executive compensation packages for the mighty and job loss for the less so?<BR/><BR/>What about the tax dollars not spent on education, housing and health care?<BR/><BR/>These rhetorical questions are posed to ask the bigger questions.<BR/><BR/>We can't so easily impose our views on others in a secular democracy.Franhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07181529277715646835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-2494554872050311662009-01-24T09:08:00.000-05:002009-01-24T09:08:00.000-05:00Actually, Grace, you don't have to answer those qu...Actually, Grace, you don't have to answer those questions. I'd just like you to think about them, is all.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-16921960072208497002009-01-24T09:07:00.000-05:002009-01-24T09:07:00.000-05:00Thanks, Grace, for stopping by and risking leaving...Thanks, Grace, for stopping by and risking leaving your opinion. We will always disagree on the final, legal matter of abortion, but we do agree that they should never be used for birth control or convenience. I suspect where we disagree is that, even when abortion is used for convenience, I still feel strongly that it is the woman's decision - even though I am strongly opposed to her making that decision which I believe is a tragedy. <BR/><BR/>I'm curious though, Grace, and wonder if you would risk further: Would you REALLY write a law that would restrict or deny an abortion based on 'convenience'?<BR/><BR/>Who gets to define 'convenience'? What stops this law from invading in other parts of our lives? Say, a fatal car accident is now 'vehicular homicide' but would become 'first degree murder' if you were in your car just for the sake of convenience?<BR/><BR/>And, what would the punishment be if the woman was found to have lied about the reasons for her abortion? Would it be considered a capital offense?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-52572032905685770812009-01-24T07:56:00.000-05:002009-01-24T07:56:00.000-05:00Well,I consider myself pro-life, and I think abort...Well,<BR/><BR/>I consider myself pro-life, and I think abortion should be a very last resort, too, Suzer.<BR/><BR/>I think the sanctity of life in general has become cheapened in our culture. It's true that many women do agonize over the decision to have an abortion, but many do not.<BR/><BR/> And, I can't help but think the law has played a major rule in helping to further shape, and influence<BR/> public opinion. The law should be helping to deter, and not enable the taking of life.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I think this is more than just a religious matter. There are atheists who are pro-life.<BR/><BR/>And, what are othodites?<BR/><BR/>P.S. I also agree with many of Rick Allen's comments.<BR/><BR/> Before the election, I had been struggling with my vote. I actually had taken one of these online tests to see where my opinions would fall on the issues, either progressive, or conservative. My score was split evenly down the middle, absolutely fifty, fifty. It was a stalemate. <BR/><BR/>I was still struggling, praying, and undecided right to the point of pushing the buttons on the voting machine.<BR/><BR/>But, in the end, I could not bring myself to vote for such a strongly pro-choice president. I just couldn't.<BR/><BR/> And, now barely in office, Obama, has signed legislation that means a portion of my tax money is going to be spent helping to fund abortion overseas. I'm broken-hearted, and totally angry at the sametime.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-35915568487335003292009-01-23T23:56:00.000-05:002009-01-23T23:56:00.000-05:00would you support a limit on the number of non-med...<I>would you support a limit on the number of non-medically necessary abortions a woman can have?</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely not (speaking personally, of course).<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, it is the pregnant woman who decides whether an abortion is "necessary" or not. Short of deciding that an abortion might itself <I>harm</I> her (and I mean IMMEDIATELY harm, not the BS that anti-choicers would have you believe about "consequences"), abortion providers SHOULD respect a woman's expression of need of an abortion.<BR/><BR/>People make decisions I don't <I>like</I>, all the time.<BR/><BR/>But even as *I* can't set "a limit on the number of" times someone <I>votes Republican</I> ;-/, neither should this other thing we don't like ("abortion as birth control", as you stipulate) be outlawed, either.JCFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14516376500318551838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-74134511516606513472009-01-23T21:48:00.000-05:002009-01-23T21:48:00.000-05:00Suzer - I agree. It am personally repulsed by abo...Suzer - I agree. It am personally repulsed by abortion as birth control. I do not believe that is the intent of the law. You name the problem, however - how to contain or control the problem. Where to draw the line? One? Two? Three strikes and you're out? What do you do with a child that is not wanted? Would you be able to sleep at night if you were a judge or doctor who forced a woman to have the child against her will? Or, forced her to give it up for adoption? What then? Forced sterilization? Can you say "Hitler"? That distresses me as much as abortion as birth control.<BR/><BR/>Bottom line: We need to keep abortion safe and legal AND educate, educate, educate while we work on the causative factors of poverty.<BR/><BR/>Sorry. No easy answers. You know. Like the rest of life.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.com