tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post2920590553283236709..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: By any other name . . .Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-8845482356559278622015-09-04T21:40:11.176-04:002015-09-04T21:40:11.176-04:00Hi, NancyP - I am working with the definitions for...Hi, NancyP - I am working with the definitions for 'trans' and 'cis' that I found on various sites on the Internet. I am strenuously opposed to any label except the one I choose for myself or the one you choose for yourself. I absolutely, positively, vehemently reject any label someone imposes on me - no matter what reason, however benevolent or well meaning. <br /><br />And, just to state again, I would rather there be no labels, except human. Child of God is good, too. Easy enough, right? Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-90888540429575397412015-09-04T19:33:14.790-04:002015-09-04T19:33:14.790-04:00To me, "cis-gender" means "living a...To me, "cis-gender" means "living as and accepting of gender assigned at birth". "Transgender" means "living as gender other than that assigned at birth", and includes both binary (female to male, male to female) and non-binary (agender, fluid gender)identities. There is a privilege in not being the "marked" individual, true enough, but I don't know that that is the main reason for the invention of the term "cis-gender". It is merely convenient short-hand in discussions about the similarities and differences of experiences of cis- and trans- people. Outside these discussions, cis- sounds a bit pompous and a bit like I ought to be reading labels for what sort of fat is in the food product (ie, the chemistry use of the prefixes cis- and trans-). In everyday interactions, cis-gender women and trans-gender women are....women....(moving on to discuss some other topic). Gender-non-conforming individuals can still identify as their gender assigned at birth. There are gender-non-conforming heterosexual-identified people."Queer" is a good umbrella term, another humorous one is the QUILTBAG. I figure - call people by their preferred pronoun and terminology, when talking to them. Save the sociological and theoretical terms for specialized discussions, and define the terms for purposes of discussion.<br /><br />I am just a simple Midwesterner, out here the community uses the LGBT initials and acknowledges that there are other non-heterosexual "miscellaneous" identities. We don't use the very fine distinctions seen on the coasts, or at least I am too old to know about the proliferating terms around gender expression.<br /><br />Now to throw even more out there: the whole asexuality community terminology: asexual (not interested - further divided into sex-repulsed or sex-indifferent)or demisexual (doesn't fancy strangers or new acquaintances, might get interested in a friend), hetero- or homo- or a-romantic. I identify as demisexual homoromantic (lesbian) woman. Phew. I would likely get a vacant stare about the demisexual homoromantic bit in the local community. <br /><br />NancyPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-78716206044287811852015-09-02T16:16:11.486-04:002015-09-02T16:16:11.486-04:00Thanks, Camilla the chicken. Stop by any time. Wha...Thanks, Camilla the chicken. Stop by any time. Whatever you call yourself. Even chicken. LOL. Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-79257243139937083622015-09-02T11:37:56.616-04:002015-09-02T11:37:56.616-04:00I love this article! Thank you so much. The funny ...I love this article! Thank you so much. The funny thing is that I have this compulsion to disclose, out of some misbegotten sense of courtesy, all the labels other people use to identify me and through which they can filter their reactions to what I say and judge me according to what they see as my privilege or lack thereof. <br /><br />But after reading this I'm not going to. Except to say that I'm a woman too and add to the mix one more label with which I for one have been struggling since my early twenties: childless...not just the state or the reasons for it, but the voiced and non-voiced assumptions it carries and their implications for the way others view me. (And there's a whole subset of labels there, too...infertile, voluntary, involuntary (that's me), and others I worry might be too painful to name aloud, so I hold them silently.)<br /><br />Now I'm going to go out and practice being gender-label-free today with a lighter spirit...and practice not labeling other people against their wishes, either!camilla the chickenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16149902129127401432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-75428337366963025812015-08-31T23:13:30.717-04:002015-08-31T23:13:30.717-04:00Marthe, I couldn't agree with you more in term...Marthe, I couldn't agree with you more in terms of the importance of being able to name one's own reality and identity. I wonder how much the names we were given at birth influence the way in which we see ourselves. One of our kids dated a man named Edgar. He hated his name. He was a very unhappy person. She didn't date him long before that relationship ended. I always wondered how much his name influenced his personality. Now, I've also known a few men named Edgar and they were delightful human beings. Except, I knew them as "Ed". Not Edgar. I often wondered if that made the difference. Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-66941310837818740172015-08-31T22:04:36.340-04:002015-08-31T22:04:36.340-04:00I fully endorse the free-to-pick-your-own-label pl...I fully endorse the free-to-pick-your-own-label plan ... seems to me that's exactly what living in a free society ought to mean ... and yet, I'm finding the whole labeling thing exceedingly tiresome and intrusive. Since you pointed out that the naming started way way back in the Old Testament, here's a thought: if we really mean it when we reserve the right to self-identify, why not start with children (who are human beings, not property) choosing their own names (pick a reasonable age - 13 or 18 or 21 - when they're considered mature enough to choose intelligently), and until that age, they would be known as the son or daughter of a parent (in my case that would be Anna's Daughter Four, being her fourth girl child) ... that would end the patriarchal nonsense of having to live with a designation of either male or female lines for life. Of course, there would be some monumental pressure to continue family line names (change hurts someone's feelings every time), but it would start a process of seeing a person as an individual, not an inheritance or family definition that may not fit at all.<br />Perhaps I am somehow immune from any desire to identify with a community or see myself as somehow one of many (no natural herding instinct?), so the label I choose is ONLY - One Not Like You ... just one of me, similar to other human beings in many ways, but still unique, not better or worse, just different than all others, only Marthe ... and I decide when and if any more information is called for ... it's called privacy, that thing we all claim as a right and actually have precious little of and seem to respect for others even less in this age of alleged openness which seems to me to be more voyeuristic than informative. You be whoever and whatever suits you, and I will be only me over here cheering you on.Marthenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-63844842310742387962015-08-31T20:25:46.328-04:002015-08-31T20:25:46.328-04:00Dear Lost in Texas. It's really the flaw in my...Dear Lost in Texas. It's really the flaw in my essay. I really should have (1) framed the issue a bit better. Like "When asked to classify myself, I answer . . ..". (2) Underscored the importance of being human first and foremost, beyond the labels. Thanks for helping me underscore that point, Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1227671894187792812015-08-31T20:23:58.201-04:002015-08-31T20:23:58.201-04:00Kirke - I love that answer. Good for you. I probab...Kirke - I love that answer. Good for you. I probably would have answered, "Human - beyond that is really none of your business."Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-64456411792992478322015-08-31T15:24:17.093-04:002015-08-31T15:24:17.093-04:00Can I just go by person? Does my, or yours or anyo...Can I just go by person? Does my, or yours or anyone's sexuality have to be the first most important thing about that person? I'm a father, son, brother, uncle, well before a hetero normative CIS whatever blah blah blah. At this point it's just getting a little silly. Lost in Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10748475022379116380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-56375134275746529912015-08-31T12:42:17.911-04:002015-08-31T12:42:17.911-04:00A real conversation I had recently:
"What ar...A real conversation I had recently:<br /><br />"What are you?"<br />"I'm female."<br />"No, I mean what ARE you...you know...."<br />"I'm female...and beyond that, it's kinda complicated and you need to let it go at that."Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-37413589697731392192015-08-31T09:58:58.596-04:002015-08-31T09:58:58.596-04:00AnnBarbie - YES!! You have pointed out the serious...AnnBarbie - YES!! You have pointed out the serious flaw in my post. I feel the same way and ended by claiming the identity which is most important to me. I should have underscored that. It's really none of anyone else's damn business, is it? Thank you for that important reminder. Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84346802482784597992015-08-31T09:55:42.512-04:002015-08-31T09:55:42.512-04:00Thanks Elizabeth,
I actually stopped identifying m...Thanks Elizabeth,<br />I actually stopped identifying myself as anything at all several years ago. I'm fine with the use of political/societal labels if people want demographics for some reason, and proceed to classify me as I appear to them (Married to a woman? OK, I'm in a lesbian relationship. My passport, driver's license and birth certificate all say "female"? OK, you can call me cis-gendered). But, if you ask me how I personally identify, you will not get an answer (unless you actually know me and are close enough to me that I actually WANT to talk to you about my innermost feelings and sense of self). I also get a bit testy with people who think they need to supply such information on my behalf (particularly when they are not even among those who know how I feel). Why should that be a question that just anyone feels they have a right to ask, or to know about another stranger?AnnBarbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02702738265139083244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67808382024773058072015-08-31T08:26:46.977-04:002015-08-31T08:26:46.977-04:00Thank you, both Kay AND Sarah. You both are inspir...Thank you, both Kay AND Sarah. You both are inspirations to me. Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-71656349368947952152015-08-31T01:23:06.075-04:002015-08-31T01:23:06.075-04:00Sarah and I speak to classes at the local universi...Sarah and I speak to classes at the local university several times a year. (I am a woman who loves and is married to a transgender woman) I am always asked, "what is your sexual orientation?" The person is asking for label. I always tell them about my life and relationships but I never label myself. I tell them if they need to label me that is fine and they can choose what they thinks fits me but I will not choose a label for them. I believe we are more complex than either/or labels. By not choosing a label for myself, I hope that causes others to give more thought to differences in people and in their relationships.Kay & Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04244257765709660605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-21497274192210974032015-08-30T11:57:13.451-04:002015-08-30T11:57:13.451-04:00Hi, Lindy.
I'm so happy for these questions a...Hi, Lindy.<br /><br />I'm so happy for these questions and for the conversation we're having. It's really important, I think. Well, at least, to me. Because, you know, we don't have any "Queer Central Authority". I think we get to make these decisions for ourselves - individually - which affects the collective consciousness of the group.<br /><br />Again, as I said to JCF, "gay woman" - for me and lots of other lesbians - is part of a remnant of patriarchy. I don't draw my identity from gay men. I have my own identity as a woman who loves women and has loved a few men in my time. Some have told me that this means I'm not "really" a lesbian. That means I'm bisexual. Seriously. Even after 39 years (this October) with the same woman. Apparently, my credentials as a lesbian are tarnished. Shame on me. <br /><br />Being a lesbian is as different from being gay as being a woman is to being a man. We don't have the same privileges in this society as men do. And, as society is more and more accepting of Queer folk, gay men continue to have privileges lesbian women don't have - and transwomen and transmen who don't "pass" are even more oppressed. This shows up most clearly - as it does in the broader culture - in terms of economics. I think the stats bear this out in very stark numbers. <br /><br />So, I reject the label "lesbian" and "gay woman" and "bisexual" as things which make other people comfortable. If I'm going to have to bear a label for my gender and sexual orientation, I'm going to chose my own. And, for me, the best umbrella term is "Queer". <br /><br />Let me reiterate: You are absolutely entitled to call yourself whatever you want. Even "gay woman". I may choke on it - as others may choke on Queer - but, you know, at the end of the day, that's a personal problem. You have a right to name your own identity and reality and I respect and honor that. Hope that's helpful.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-35121744016720075682015-08-30T11:46:30.426-04:002015-08-30T11:46:30.426-04:00HI, JCF. Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I...HI, JCF. Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I can help you understand why "cis-gender" is such a problem for me. And, if you'll notice, it's mostly women - and of them, many lesbian women - who have a problem with it. First clue. <br /><br />The problem, a word, is: Patriarchy. With regards to this particular issue, it is assumed, unexamined male privilege which is the problem. Which includes "naming". It's in the Bible, you see. Adam - not Eve, but Adam - was given the power to name every living creature in his reality. So, women have traditionally given up their birth names to take on the name (and family identity) of their husbands. <br /><br />So, some of us - not all of us, some of us - are just a bit sensitive around this issue. We are women who are struggling with the harsh realities of NOT living up to the cultural expectations of what it means to be a "woman" and then, here come some transwomen who insist that women who are born with an assigned gender which matches their lived experience take on a label that we didn't create, didn't ask for and don't want. It feels a bit like - not saying it IS, not making a judgment, just expressing a personal, felt experience - some folks have not done their homework with regard to examining assumed male privilege. <br /><br />I get it. I've never experienced male privilege - just white, middle class, well educated privilege - but I'm quite sure it must be very, very hard to relinquish. Especially if you've always just simply assumed it would be there. <br /><br />The fancy Latin root of the word "cis" provides absolutely no comfort. Women can understand this. Contrary to some myths about women, we are not the "inferior sex" with regards to intelligence and our ability to understand. It's that, ironically, the very people who chide us (and rightfully so) for "living on the binary" then create a whole new binary and foist it on people who don't want or need yet another label, yet another expectation to live up to which we can't meet. <br /><br />I thought I covered this pretty completely in my blog. I'm Queer and woman and not cis because I can not possibly - will not ever - live up to the cultural expectations of what it means to be a woman - much less a "cis woman" in 2015. <br /><br />If that's a term social scientists and transwomen need in having their discussions about particular demographics, well, I suppose that's fine. But, if others are allowed to name their own reality then so am I. And "cis" is not my reality. Do not EVER refer to me as "cis" in my presence. Or, you will hear from me. Loudly. And, clearly. <br /><br />"Cis" may "make sense" to you - and, I understand how it might, if you look at it from one, single perspective - but it really doesn't "work" for me. And lots of other women, apparently, if you check the comments on my FB page. <br /><br />Here's my question: Why do transwomen have to identify as trans? Why not just identify as "woman"? It's fine with me. I don't need to know the modifier. I think, mostly, I can figure that out all on my own without the label. And, if I can't, well, what's the issue, really? In the end, do any of these labels really matter?<br /><br />I hope that's helpful to you. From one Queer to another. Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-17835714145464482752015-08-30T01:15:56.283-04:002015-08-30T01:15:56.283-04:00I am all-in with this, and thank you for saying it...I am all-in with this, and thank you for saying it.<br /><br />Could you say more about this, though. I may need a little education today:<br /><br />"Yet, I know I'm not 'gay'. That has a very different meaning than 'lesbian'. Very. Different."<br /><br />I thought a lesbian was just a gay woman. Tell me what I'm mising.<br /><br />Lindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04662429826507775390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-11051321095381722252015-08-29T23:55:52.213-04:002015-08-29T23:55:52.213-04:00Full-disclosure: I ID as Queer, too. It covers so ...Full-disclosure: I ID as Queer, too. It covers so much!<br /><br />Re the issue of "cis-", let's check Wiki:<br /><br /><i>Etymology and terminology<br />Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which is an antonym for the Latin-derived prefix trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of". This usage can be seen in the cis–trans distinction in chemistry, the cis–trans or complementation test in genetics, in Ciscaucasia (from the Russian perspective) and in the ancient Roman term Cisalpine Gaul (i.e., "Gaul on this side of the Alps"). In the case of gender, cis- is used to refer to the alignment of gender identity with assigned sex.</i><br /><br />I honestly don't understand the controversy over this. In the Western world (probably a result of patriarchy?), the Powers That Be care *very* much whether a newborn baby be labeled "M" or "F". The baby has no say in it. For most of those babies, as they grow to be children, adolescents, then adults, there's no disputing that "M" or "F". Good for them!<br /><br />...but for all those who feel burdened by that un-chosen label, surely we can come w/ a dichotomy that's not, essentially "Normal" or "Freak"? Hence, the more NEUTRAL spectrum ending w/ "Transgender" on one end, and "Cisgender" on the other. Makes sense to me.<br /><br />Thanks for this, Elizabethl.JCFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14516376500318551838noreply@blogger.com