tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post3081807031286510533..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: The Radical Orthodox RabbiElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-81103708175885289712018-03-31T03:32:27.863-04:002018-03-31T03:32:27.863-04:00Ah! That was so very good.
Yes, yes, yes... to eve...Ah! That was so very good.<br />Yes, yes, yes... to everything. Lindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04662429826507775390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-81182859780767638422008-03-25T11:52:00.000-04:002008-03-25T11:52:00.000-04:00Thanks for this Elizabeth. Sorry I came so late t...Thanks for this Elizabeth. Sorry I came so late to it, although I have seen it cited in several places. I'm glad I finally found the time to read it slowly.<BR/><BR/>It brings me near to tears both for its deeper truth and for the memories of my dear Jewish friends, who pretty much saved me, gave me a job and a second family for myself and my children, during the darkest days of my divorce. I'll never forget Passover seder with them, which involved much warmth and love but also the sudden shock of recognition that our Communion began as a Passover meal. I knew that intellectually before, but seeing the linens and the water, much the same as our priests use, hit it home.<BR/><BR/>Why we cannot talk of these things openly and make the connections without being accused of "universalism" (as if, in any event, were the worst crime imaginable) and the dangers of "improper" Communion is -- well, beyond my comprehension, as many things are. I'd mention the good things Jack Spong wrote on Judaism but... well, I don't want to bring the Spong brigade on you unawares! Shalom.kladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09526715552795733402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34936372985111089832008-03-14T02:45:00.000-04:002008-03-14T02:45:00.000-04:00Oh my! This was my first visit to your blog, and ...Oh my! This was my first visit to your blog, and this was the most wonderful post I have read in a long time! WOW! Thank you for sharing such a personal experience with us.Dorcas (aka SingingOwl)https://www.blogger.com/profile/15626748280614018533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-33289596409343196992008-03-11T23:43:00.000-04:002008-03-11T23:43:00.000-04:00The Mitvah continues: I am so pleased at the tone...The Mitvah continues: I am so pleased at the tone and content of this discussion. I don't think I've seen such differing perspectives presented with such respect. The Radical Orthodox Rabbi would be so pleased. As would Jesus. Thank you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-73196150444607776922008-03-11T23:36:00.000-04:002008-03-11T23:36:00.000-04:00Thanks for responding to my questions, Hiram. I t...Thanks for responding to my questions, Hiram. I think I understand what you are saying, but at the same time it seems illogical to me. If God is revealed truly through Scripture (and I can agree with that proposition) and is bound (in a sense) by that Scripture, does that leave room for God to reveal Himself in other ways? I mean, we take as true that God is bigger than Scripture -- that He has to be as the Creator, and yet if we say he is bound by Scripture that seems, in a way, to be limiting God. Which of course, we can't do.<BR/><BR/>I could go 'round and 'round on this subject, so I'll likely leave it here. But I guess if I consider God as both fully revealed in Scripture, yet bigger than scripture (as I agree He is inherently bigger than we can comprehend), it seems to me that God's very nature provides the ability to embrace new things. You may see that as dangerously universalist, yet I see it as an integral and, in fact, imperative aspect of the nature of God (as far as I in my human weakness can perceive God).<BR/><BR/>Oy. See -- I do go round and round! Thanks for addressing my question, though -- it has helped me think a bit more deeply about this.Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-89003950145024940392008-03-11T21:21:00.000-04:002008-03-11T21:21:00.000-04:00Suzer, thanks for a good question. I would say th...Suzer, thanks for a good question. I would say that God is certainly bigger than Scripture. He is inherently bigger than any of us can comprehend. The Creator must be greater than his creation.<BR/><BR/>As for being "bound by Scripture" -- the answer to that will depend on what one believes Scripture to be. It is my conviction that God is bound by Scripture because Scripture is <B>his</B> Word. He is not bound in the sense that he is constrained against his will, but he is bound because he has revealed himself truly, and therefore Scripture reveals his nature. God cannot oppose Scripture or act outside of it because then he would be acting against his own nature.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said in Mt. 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill them." Jesus took Scriptures as God's Word -- and God's words -- to humanity. So did the early Christians, and those who led the Church of England as it became an independent body in the 1500's; see Articles VI, VII, and XX of the XXXIX Articles. (I could quote some statements from Cranmer and Hooker, but they would take up quite a bit of space.)<BR/><BR/>If, on the other hand, Scripture is not "theopneustos" ("God-breathed", 1 Tim. 3:16), but is more the product of human reflection upon experiences of and with the divine, then one might say that either God is forced to submit to flawed or inadequate human thought, or that God is free to ignore the statements of Scripture, because they are not his Word, but human words, however noble they may be in general.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-90274672495123948382008-03-11T20:03:00.000-04:002008-03-11T20:03:00.000-04:00It is a dark day, indeed, if ever we let these hum...It is a dark day, indeed, if ever we let these human creations we call "doctrine" interfere with our more fundamental call to love, to show hospitality, to be generous.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03275381128126684009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-8905250117074363342008-03-11T19:27:00.000-04:002008-03-11T19:27:00.000-04:00Oh Hiram, you remind me of the fundies that run my...Oh Hiram, you remind me of the fundies that run my poor diocese. I once complained that the only service of holy communion at the church nearest my 90 yr old mother on Christmas day was too early to get her there and the later ones were something that did not resemble Anglicanism but closer to a Billy Graham crusade (we were asked to raise our hands if we were saved at which stage I walked out). The minister (they never use the word priest) told me that too many non-believers attend on Christmas day and might take communion unworthily. I was speechless. Do you really think that God condemns a person who takes communion without full understanding? Might not He just use the sacrament to bring that person closer to Him?Brian Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10802352695666737088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-64571010124010398132008-03-11T17:55:00.000-04:002008-03-11T17:55:00.000-04:00Hi Hiram! Your comment at 5:37 caused me to wonde...Hi Hiram! Your comment at 5:37 caused me to wonder -- Is God bound by Scripture? Or is God bigger than Scripture? I understand God is revealed to us through Scripture, but is it possible that the same Scripture that leads us toward God is simply too limited to encompass all that is God?<BR/><BR/>Just some questions I'm pondering based on your comments, and I thought I'd share. It's perhaps a bit off topic, so I thank Rev. Kaeton for allowing me this room to ponder. :)Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-72834033586767118862008-03-11T17:37:00.000-04:002008-03-11T17:37:00.000-04:00I stand corrected. Small "u" universalism is ende...I stand corrected. Small "u" universalism is endemic amongst progressives; I have often heard, "There is no hell, or, if there is, it will be empty."<BR/><BR/>Not that I am hoping that there will be people in hell -- but the nature of sin is that, unless one is forgiven and born anew through the Holy Spirit, one could not bear to be in heaven. And while I would like universal repentance and faith to be true, there is no indication in Scripture that that will be so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-16360208936104999892008-03-11T14:00:00.000-04:002008-03-11T14:00:00.000-04:00I understand, Hiram, but you are mistaken. I know...I understand, Hiram, but you are mistaken. I know Susan Russell, known her for years, and I can tell you that she ain't no universalist - Capitol or Lower-case "u". She loves Jesus as much as I do - maybe even more, given the work she has committed herself to do - and we both live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Progressive does not equal "universalist." Maybe you misunderstood our deep commitment to diversity and multiculturalism.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-90868271762588873852008-03-11T13:50:00.000-04:002008-03-11T13:50:00.000-04:00I am not talking about Unitarian-Universalists. T...I am not talking about Unitarian-Universalists. There are those who are trinitarian and who say that no one will be condemned in the end. The "Universalists" part of the U-U's was originally a Trinitarian body, and only joined with the Unitarians during the 20th century.<BR/><BR/>My memory may be failing me, or I could be confusing something that Susan Russell said -- but I have been under the impression that you are a "small u" universalist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-20579181974119641732008-03-11T13:32:00.000-04:002008-03-11T13:32:00.000-04:00Oh, Hiram, how could you read any of the stuff on ...Oh, Hiram, how could you read any of the stuff on my blog, including this essay, and say that you think I'm a 'universalist'? I am solidly Trinitarian with a deep love for Jesus.<BR/><BR/>That's not the point of this story. And, BTW, I have been in the company - many times - of orthodox rabbi who will not let women TOUCH them, much less invite one to share a Shabbat. <BR/><BR/>The point is that I think we might be able to learn something about 'radical hospitality' from this radical orthodox Rabbi as well as the one we all claim to follow, Jesus, our Annointed Messiah.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-15214666040717149982008-03-11T13:17:00.000-04:002008-03-11T13:17:00.000-04:00My roommate at college was Jewish. I visited his ...My roommate at college was Jewish. I visited his home one weekend, and I was invited to participate in the Sabbath meal -- I was even given a yarmulke to wear. But such participation is part of Jewish tradition. If I were to go to Brooklyn on a Friday, I might well meet someone who would invite me to Shabbos.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said, "This do in remembrance of me," and it is clear in the context that he is speaking not only of his presence and teachings, but also of his atoning death. Those who do not affirm his atoning death are treading on shaky ground if they participate in Holy Communion.<BR/><BR/>You are (I think) a universalist, so the idea of spiritual danger through Communion is not one you accept. But if the idea of universalism is not true -- then it is possible to participate in Communion and to do so to one's harm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-18756196551254359732008-03-11T10:42:00.000-04:002008-03-11T10:42:00.000-04:00Prayers headed your way for your mother. I've see...Prayers headed your way for your mother. I've seen your comments elsewhere, and this post seemed the most appropriate to offer a prayer. May God's grace, strength and mercy be with you, your mom, and your family at this time.<BR/><BR/>Susan H.Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-654530849355090152008-03-10T22:38:00.000-04:002008-03-10T22:38:00.000-04:00Re What Diane said: As a kid I used to baby-sit f...Re What Diane said: As a kid I used to baby-sit for a Jewish neighbor on Friday nights -- and many times I came early for the Sabbath meal. It was wonderful, and I still remember some responses.susankayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513759507628166408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67242383153946903292008-03-10T22:36:00.000-04:002008-03-10T22:36:00.000-04:00"More Cows" link brought me here. This is so AWES..."More Cows" link brought me here. This is so AWESOME! Wish I could have been there with you. Thank you so much for sharing this.Rev SShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14661507940053055640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34453329958241863812008-03-10T17:40:00.000-04:002008-03-10T17:40:00.000-04:00Love love this. came over from Paul's place. I u...Love love this. came over from Paul's place. I used to have sabbath at a friend's house when I was growing up. They were not orthodox, but very welcoming to me.Diane M. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07749136181846671327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-28664040930669012082008-03-10T17:04:00.000-04:002008-03-10T17:04:00.000-04:00That is a truly lovely story, and reminds me of a ...That is a truly lovely story, and reminds me of a long-ago Passover seder attended by myself (nominally Anglican), two Jewish women, and a Kurdish Muslim. A truly great time was had by all!Patrick Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15403346340004528537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-2160685565757322242008-03-10T16:27:00.000-04:002008-03-10T16:27:00.000-04:00Beautiful story and I cried too. By the way, I cou...Beautiful story and I cried too. By the way, I could be wrong, but I did go to a Jewish University as a non-Jew and was never excluded from anything, meal or otherwise.Auntie Knickershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08854138665883068803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84679050830246670892008-03-10T15:50:00.000-04:002008-03-10T15:50:00.000-04:00Elizabeth,Thank you! This was the best meditation ...Elizabeth,<BR/>Thank you! This was the best meditation my morning could have had. I read it again this afternoon and cried again. It reminded me of a sermon by a radical Lutheran pastot who took me in when I was a refuge Catholic in college.<BR/><BR/>The storey he told went something like this:<BR/><BR/>An angel showed me a vison of hell. Everyone was sitting around an enormous banquet table with every food and drink imaginable. But the people were angry and cursed each other because their elbows couldn't bend and so they couldn't enjoy the food before them.<BR/><BR/>Next, the angel showed me a vison of heaven. It looked just like hell, except the people were feeding each other and having a wonderful party.<BR/><BR/>Shalom, indeed!barbarabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03609240217516604362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50807012024393041512008-03-10T15:19:00.000-04:002008-03-10T15:19:00.000-04:00I had a similar encounter at a synagogue in Buffal...I had a similar encounter at a synagogue in Buffalo, as I was doing some spiritual searching. I visited the synagogue for Sabbath prayers. Perhaps due to the confused looks on my face, I was recognized as a non-Jew. Several people immediately came to me with the "prayer book" (if that's what it's called -- this was a long time ago) open to the right page, and prodded me to turn the page when necessary (as it was in Hebrew). Occasionally, someone would whisper to me what was happening in the service. All the while, wonderful food smells arose from the back of the hall, and I was not just encouraged, but nearly carried into the hall to join them for a meal. Everyone welcomed me so warmly, in just the way you experienced.<BR/><BR/>In my experience, most (though not all) Episcopal churches are lacking in that gracious kind of welcoming. We would do well to learn from stories such as the one you shared.<BR/><BR/>If it were up to me, I'd do away with doctrine altogether -- much to the horror and dismay of many, I'm sure. JimB hit the nail on the head -- Jesus did not inquire of the 5000 if they were baptized, believers, or indoctrinated into any particular religion. He fed them, simple as that.Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-28615271169533297522008-03-10T14:41:00.000-04:002008-03-10T14:41:00.000-04:00Elizabeth, I didn't cry girly-girl tears, but I di...Elizabeth, I didn't cry girly-girl tears, but I did feel the presence of the Spirit as I read. It's a lovely story about the woman who wanted Baptism at the age of 75 for herself, not because of anyone else's wishes.<BR/><BR/>And then, what a marvelous encounter with the rabbi and the Rabbi at the feast. Thanks for telling these stories, and for telling them so beautifully.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-15302244015319145752008-03-10T14:30:00.000-04:002008-03-10T14:30:00.000-04:00I linked as well, too good a story to not spread f...I linked as well, too good a story to not spread far and wide. Thank you for starting my day with a smile, a tear, and much blessing.Josephine-https://www.blogger.com/profile/12328106972076348785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-89862741123597387342008-03-10T14:26:00.000-04:002008-03-10T14:26:00.000-04:00Once more, Lisbeth you have hit the nail on the he...Once more, Lisbeth you have hit the nail on the head. We spend more time telling people why we can't be friends than showing one another why we can.<BR/><BR/>Bravo, for the Rabbi. May we have the same grace and same ability to welcome others to our tables.<BR/><BR/>Let's get back to being radical!Muthah+https://www.blogger.com/profile/10589837671378205837noreply@blogger.com