tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post4699505538908109990..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: R.E.S.P.E.C.T.Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-87081617782119691152010-09-06T18:09:02.186-04:002010-09-06T18:09:02.186-04:00I suspect some in this new congregation I serve (n...I suspect some in this new congregation I serve (new because it has only been 19 months) think I am a loose cannon. They mostly refer to me as their rector even though I am their priest in partnership (Vermont lingo for priest in charge); this year we will discern whether we stay together as a working team.Caminantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16610142955176992982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-38472933556067779642010-09-06T12:30:33.032-04:002010-09-06T12:30:33.032-04:00IT, I'll say in the defence of the delivery gu...IT, I'll say in the defence of the delivery guy that (at least in your telling) he "got it" fairly quickly and had the decency to be embarrassed. Escaping the bounds of the cultural norms we've inherited is no easy thing - and all the more so "100 years ago" at the dawn of your distinguished career.<br /><br />Even those of us who think we're fairly well liberated can find such things coming back to haunt. A couple of years ago, the best professionall football club in the universe* had the odd experience of having six starters taken out by broken fibulae.<br /><br />At one game, the woman who has sat in front of me for many years was explaining about the relative importance of the fibula compared to the tibia (fibula starts with "F" as in "All"). I asked if she was a nurse.<br /><br />"I'm a doctor."<br /><br />"And I'm embarrassed."<br /><br />I can't deny that, deep down, I had assumed nurse instead of doctor simply because she was a woman. I had every reason to be embarrassed. She took it with tremendous grace.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34032038676030683502010-09-05T19:29:49.971-04:002010-09-05T19:29:49.971-04:00Don't know whether to laugh or scream. The cl...Don't know whether to laugh or scream. The clincher is that this bonehead has the power of life and death - figuratively only, I hope - over people. <br /><br />Good luck with your new life.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-52632915476700535992010-09-05T12:17:09.672-04:002010-09-05T12:17:09.672-04:00Christian - I will, yes, from time to time. I'...Christian - I will, yes, from time to time. I'm "guest preaching" the end of September - November in various places from Harlem to CT. We'll see how my role in DE unfolds.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-10204465311445383822010-09-05T12:05:24.751-04:002010-09-05T12:05:24.751-04:00Are you expected/expecting to have any liturgical/...Are you expected/expecting to have any liturgical/offical role in your new congregation? Would that weigh into the decision at all? I assume you've been spending some time there over the years so you're not a total newcomer. What have people been calling you previously?Christian Paolinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02191300934950572656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-17175539100461935592010-09-05T10:01:24.502-04:002010-09-05T10:01:24.502-04:00What an absolutely GREAT post!What an absolutely GREAT post!claire bangasserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380558962103134334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-21430056683902212002010-09-04T22:35:57.439-04:002010-09-04T22:35:57.439-04:00Caminante,
Only if you are a loose canon!Caminante,<br />Only if you are a loose canon!IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-40385247096663590842010-09-04T21:41:26.251-04:002010-09-04T21:41:26.251-04:00I find myself quite in your line of thinking, Eliz...I find myself quite in your line of thinking, Elizabeth. I missed the FB discussion (But I hope you did not miss my "Ode to Bug." Some say it is my finest work, but that's really not saying much at all.). <br /><br />Not raised in churches where the terms "father" and "mother" were ever used, I find them foreign in my mouth. But back in the day, I had a bit of trouble with the handle "Pastor So-and-So," agreeing with one of our pastors that we don't use such titles for others in the congregation ("Hello, Speech-Language Pathologist Kevin!"). I find the concept of the priesthood of believers and God calling us by our names a very compelling reason to do the same. <br /><br />However, I'm also a big one on calling others what they wish to be called, and happen to be in a parish where the custom is to simply use the first name. That is likely odd to those who come to us from various "high church" backgrounds, but since we are often a "first contact" for non-churched individuals, and evacuees from Fundagelical Land, absence of the title is likely a good thing. <br /><br />Or, we could do as one of my students does, who calls me "THE KJ." I like that!KJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701224049914946896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-4106893868293431772010-09-04T17:01:43.360-04:002010-09-04T17:01:43.360-04:00Working with the clergy and lay leaders of the Epi...Working with the clergy and lay leaders of the Episcopal Church of Haiti, I have joyfully accepted their calling me 'Mon Pere' Lee ('My Father Lee') as their accepting me into their midst. Normally I would have kiniption fits over that but in this case it is OK. Likewise, in El Salvador, I am always called la Reverenda... usually without my name. Again, it is OK. Here, it's first name or the 'protestant' grammatically incorrect 'Rev'd.' ('Dr' is too pretentious, and no one would really get 'Canon.')Caminantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16610142955176992982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-21473987594372715072010-09-04T16:10:01.963-04:002010-09-04T16:10:01.963-04:00You have me remembering an American Management Ass...You have me remembering an American Management Association course I took so many years ago (but well after the passage of the Civil Rights Bill which included as a Southern Senator's joke protection based on gender as well as on race). It was the HR segment and the presenter was trying to sensitize us to the use of Black rather than Negro or whatever. I asked if it was not also appropriate to use "woman" rather than "girl" for adult females. The (quite large) room (with VERY few women present) exploded with laughter and the presenter explained to me that "You girls are flattered to be called girls"<br /><br />Grrrr.susankayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513759507628166408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-70324095361606773812010-09-03T21:02:12.806-04:002010-09-03T21:02:12.806-04:00I'm a young woman seminarian working through t...I'm a young woman seminarian working through these questions as well. A wise and much older male priest offered his suggestion of a gender neutral, role specific, ancient title: Prester. I'm having a hard time getting much buy-in, though.Rhondahttp://storiesontheway.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-90044624164711117142010-09-03T20:34:09.418-04:002010-09-03T20:34:09.418-04:00In my first call, where I was curate and the other...In my first call, where I was curate and the other clergy were known as Fr. Last Name and Mother Last Name, I too had to be Mother Last Name. My next parish, when given a choice to call me Mother Last Name/First Name, or Pastor Last Name/First Name or Priest First Name - chose Pastor First Name. My third parish, I said I'd be called Pastor First Name. <br /><br />It would b good if we Episcopalians could decide upon a title that would be used by all women and men ordained to the priesthood. Afterall Deacons are called "Deacon so and so" and Bishops are called "Bishop so and so" - priests ought to have a similar neutral title for women and men. Rev. just doesn't work for me even though I was recently told that in the black churches Rev. means that one has an M.Div. and therefore more creditbility than "Pastor" who would have, I guess, no M.Div.<br /><br />But mostly, respect it a tough cookie. I had it in some congregations by virtue of role (rector) and ordination and not had in others for the same criteria...but perhaps because I was a woman 20 or 30 years younger than the majority of the congregation.<br /><br />I'm glad you did not tell that judge who your bishop was. What a ridiculous question.Terrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667178624061122421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88052098412060954542010-09-03T19:37:56.465-04:002010-09-03T19:37:56.465-04:00Anon,
that's awful.
As to the subject of the ...Anon,<br />that's awful.<br /><br />As to the subject of the discussion, I find titles useful generally because the assumption otherwise is that the woman is not the one in authority.<br /><br />100 years ago, when I set up my first lab as a brand new assistant professor, the delivery guy came around with a bunch of new equipement from shipping. "Is this Dr T's lab?" he asked me, and I nodded, enjoying the feeling of having MY name on the lab.<br /><br />"Oh, so you work for him?" said the shipping guy, cheerfully. My face froze. I looked at him. He was horrified. "Oh, ****," he said. "YOU'RE Dr T." I nodded, but I was crestfallen.<br /><br />As the years went on, it became routine for people to assume I was the secretary--the woman couldn't possibly be the Professor, could she? What's sad is that young women do it as much as men. Studies show that students are much tougher on women in teaching reviews, too.<br /><br />So sometimes, yes, we need the title to make it clear that we have one.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-49833983435043870532010-09-03T18:12:33.816-04:002010-09-03T18:12:33.816-04:00In our diocese, everyone is pretty much low church...In our diocese, everyone is pretty much low church, so most male priests are called Mr. XYZ. I grew up calling priests Father, so I gravitate towards Mother for women. But Mother Mary seems not-so-good for me -- It's already been taken. So I ask people to just call me Mary. Since I'm in the south, if people want their children to give me a title, I just tell them to call me Ms. Mary, which is what would happen for any 'elder'. So the rector is Mr.Jim and I am Ms. Mary and everyone is happy. (One person here calls me Mo Mary - as in Mo being the equivalent of Fr - and I absolutely can't abide it!)Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09076367075728645415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-6660578317375081992010-09-03T17:40:39.454-04:002010-09-03T17:40:39.454-04:00Well, you know, Missouri is just enough "sout...Well, you know, Missouri is just enough "southern" we tend to do the Mr./Mrz./Miz thing with the first name in all polite conversations. "Pastor Elizabeth" seems soooo Lutheran. "Rev. Elizabeth" sounds soooo Methodist or Presybyterian.<br /><br />Besides, a priest is not just a pastor. In our Anglo-catholic way, you are a transmitter of sacraments. To me, "Father" and "Mother" carry this distinction.<br /><br />If I was meeting you for the first time, I would probably call you "Mother Elizabeth" b/c I would call a male priest "Father whatshisname" in a similar circumstance.<br /><br />Over time, I'd probably move to "Madre" or if you had a "pet" name, "Madre Pet name" in public. In private, once I got to know you in public, I'd go first name, but when you are wearing your collar in a public place I would always publicly call you by title.<br /><br />And if you heard me call you "Mother Kaeton," you'd know I was either being a sarcastic smart-ass, or I'm mad at you! (the equivalent of my mom calling me by my first, middle, and last name!)Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-30180195894413423232010-09-03T16:15:48.178-04:002010-09-03T16:15:48.178-04:00Because my clerical maleness prompts that automati...Because my clerical maleness prompts that automatic respect that clerical femaleness does not automatically prompt, I need to take the lesson of Job's three friends seriously. They should have, instead of beginning to pontificate, continued what they did the first seven days: sat in silence before his great suffering. Thanks, Elizabeth, for your so eloquent statement of what it's all about. I'm sitting in a silence full of grace.harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02941907497760248857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-24462198272196218172010-09-03T13:49:38.681-04:002010-09-03T13:49:38.681-04:00Priests whom I enjoy a close relationship with are...Priests whom I enjoy a close relationship with are addressed by their first names. Outside of that, male priests I address as "Father"; female priests as "mother".<br /><br />Maybe I'm a little old fashioned, but I just can not help but feel anything less is disrespectful. I know, I know....my Anglo-Catholicism is showing :)David and Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09545394141617985139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-42336353223076795472010-09-03T12:56:21.835-04:002010-09-03T12:56:21.835-04:00Sorry I missed the discussion on FB....
Well... w...Sorry I missed the discussion on FB....<br /><br />Well... we have a Bishop who insists that if we are to accept same sex couples as blessed, we must give room to those who insist upon the mutilation of female genitals... so called female circumcision....<br /><br />Boy. Do I feel respected in this Diocese. Sorry, must sign anonymous...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-27433981709172121702010-09-03T12:40:17.953-04:002010-09-03T12:40:17.953-04:00The conversation you've described with the jud...The conversation you've described with the judge mirrors the ones I've had with my parish since I arrived here a year ago as their first female priest. After MANY years of Father So-and-so, they cannot get Mother out of their mouths. It's not that I demand a title; it IS about having the same status as their former rector. <br /><br />I haven't insisted, but I have asked the office staff not to refer to me as Rev. Name. My first name is fine. But I see the difference in authority in other areas. I have to earn their respect, but they also need to understand that I am their rector, with the same responsibilities and charge as all the males who preceded me.Rev Dr Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14686528826414330355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34034117801437407722010-09-03T12:37:14.302-04:002010-09-03T12:37:14.302-04:00I've never really liked Father (or Mother) for...I've never really liked Father (or Mother) for a priest. Perhaps its because I'm not really Anglo-Catholic but more low church. As I recall (but its been years ago) in the low church belt of Maryland/Virginia where there are still parishes that do Morning Prayer as the principle service on Sundays with Eucharist maybe once or twice a month, the clergy don't go by Father (at least the men don't). I don't recall what they ask their parishioners to call them, maybe mister??? It does not really confer a title, like Judge. I sort of like the CofE where many people are simply called "Vicar" even thought that is probably not grammatically correct either. Vicar is a term you can address to a person (i.e. Hello Vicar) in a way that priest isn't (Hello Priest doesn't work). And, in America we don't use the word rector in that fasion.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16855171851801011788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-44069080447571652882010-09-03T12:09:49.811-04:002010-09-03T12:09:49.811-04:00Elizabeth,
I got a good chuckle from your conversa...Elizabeth,<br />I got a good chuckle from your conversation with the Judge. When I first got out of law school in oklahoma in the early 90's there was a Judge in the Eastern District that did not like women attorneys. A female attorney appeared before him in court in a dress suit and he refused to recognize her because she was not dressed appropriately for court. (The Bar rules require appropriate attire.) She pointed out to the Judge that she was in a dress suit and he responded, "I only recognize suits. I have an extra suit in the other room. You can go put it on and I'll recognize you." Needless to say the Judge was reported to the Bar for his abusive conduct.<br />Yup, lots of women have been in your spot. Keep up the fine work. I love your stories with a moral twist.<br />MariaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-45173838960831274232010-09-03T11:49:54.725-04:002010-09-03T11:49:54.725-04:00I've tended to the practice of referring to cl...I've tended to the practice of referring to clergy according to their preference. Personally, I prefer to be called "Malcolm," but if someone insists on a title, I prefer "Father" over the grammatical abomination which is "Reverend." As Chaplain to the ishop's School for Choristyers last month, I was "Father Malcolm."<br /><br />However, as the diocesan communications wallah, I was presented with a bit of a challenge about how we denoted the clergy on the parish listing. One of my colleagues is so adamantly "anti-Reverend" that he insists on "Father," even in writing. I'm fine with that - except on a list of clergy where we needed some consistency.<br /><br />Consensus among clergy is a pipe dream, so I never even bothered to consult. My solution was to simply to use the name and the order, as in:<br />* Xxxxxxx Xxxxxx, Priest<br />* Yyyyy Yyyy, Deacon<br />* Zzzzzz Zzzzzzz, Bishop<br />This worked for all but two churches, served by Evangelical Lutheran clergy. For them, I used:<br />* Aaa Aaaaaa, Pastor<br /><br />I have to admit that I don't understand the passionate disdain most female priests have for "Mother." I understand that "Mother" has cultural baggage - but so does every other option, including the option of simply using one's first name, as you so insightfully ppoint out here.<br /><br />That said, I revert to my earlier comment about respecting the preference of the individual cleric.<br /><br />+Victoria Matthews, sometime Bishop of Edmonton (Canada) and now Bishop of Christchurch (New Zealand) was an advanced degree student when I was in college. Her own take was that female priests should also be called "Father." She may have been joking. But she may have had a point.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88793168566362417442010-09-03T11:32:29.286-04:002010-09-03T11:32:29.286-04:00I was planning a funeral with a family of one of o...I was planning a funeral with a family of one of our parishioners - they were all RC. They wanted to know what to call me - I went through my entire spiel - they said we will call you Father. I don't normally go for this title tho I know women who do use it. In this case it was their recognition of my priesthood- it is what they call priests - like they call their physician Doctor. - so I allowed that. Father AnnAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-51560416300719598072010-09-03T10:28:08.180-04:002010-09-03T10:28:08.180-04:00I think you will cousin, or perhaps cuz, to me!
So...I think you will cousin, or perhaps cuz, to me!<br />Something must be in the air, if you check my blog, http://spiritandflesh.blogspot.com/<br />you will see I did a whole posting on titles. <br /><br />I invite you give it a read, but my basic conclusion is that rigidity around titles, Dr./Rev./Canon , etc. is very often a enforcement of top-down power structures. They give a false sense of good boundaries. Good boundaries come from healthy relationships and mutual respect, not rigid titles. In fact, when titles are rigid I believe it encourages system beating and work arounds, not collaboration, or dealing directly and respectfully with one another.<br /><br />I think the overimportance of titles are relic of a white WASPY male power structure, to quote Audre Lorde "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House."Chris Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15697381542132065448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34167938128931024292010-09-03T10:25:16.323-04:002010-09-03T10:25:16.323-04:00Lilith: You know, I call my mother's partner &...Lilith: You know, I call my mother's partner "father", and he's a man on earth. I like to hope it's not because I'm biblically illiterate.marnanelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08335477330828148496noreply@blogger.com