tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post5999387803886768280..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: No dumb dogs!Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-26331446098259389952013-02-11T21:20:48.297-05:002013-02-11T21:20:48.297-05:00Well, Kirke, I suppose there are lots of metaphors...Well, Kirke, I suppose there are lots of metaphors for what I tried to do. However, I KNOW - for a natural fact - there are readers who are talking about this with the folks back home. "Confidentiality," I'm convinced, is a lovely concept with little or no basis in reality. As Jack Spong used to say, if one person tells another person a secret, it's no longer a secret. Or, as the law states, unless I've got my stole on and the BCP open, there's no seal of confessional that will not compel me to not report what was said to me directly that might be a crime. I didn't think this was a secret - or confidential (I've read the reader's web page on GBEC and there's nothing there. Anonymous is not the same as confidential) - but someone was made uncomfortable by it, so I put the picture of the tumor away.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84092750861504162942013-02-11T21:01:58.938-05:002013-02-11T21:01:58.938-05:00Marthe - Well, I am always horrified when I run in...Marthe - Well, I am always horrified when I run into a pastorally inept priest or deacon or lay leader. It's really up to the bishop - with the assistance the COM, Standing Committee and seminary deans - to use the information unearthed by the GOEs to assist them. If they don't, shame on them - and woe to us.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-31618446023721566732013-02-11T20:50:32.101-05:002013-02-11T20:50:32.101-05:00Thanks, Sextant, for that clarification. And yes, ...Thanks, Sextant, for that clarification. And yes, that's a good analogy.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-5943353724496679912013-02-11T19:24:41.030-05:002013-02-11T19:24:41.030-05:00Wait a minute. I seriously doubt Elizabeth has ev...Wait a minute. I seriously doubt Elizabeth has even minutely compromised confidentiality here. She did the equivalent of me showing an unlabled photo of a tumor and saying, "This is an adenocarcinoma of the colon." That's all she did. She didn't even say, "This is an adenocarcinoma of the colon in a 59 year old woman who noticed bloody stools and trouble evacuating x 1 month." I would not be afraid of doing that. The only thing I would do more "protective" is here in Kirksville, I would not show that case immediately b/c there might have only been one person in town who had colon surgery that day and one could deduce it.<br /><br />So I'm sorry, I respectfully have to assert she's broken no confidentiality in terms of "patient identification." The word for word rules on the GOE I leave up to someone more in the know. But my suspicion is Elizabeth is well versed in those rules herself.<br /><br />I have to ask if the discomfort is more about the truth revealed in those sorts of comments. I have to admit when I read some of them, I had flashbacks of something an abuser clergy person once said, and that person's way of getting out of doing the work pastors are supposed to do.Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-38664123311749755262013-02-11T15:26:11.125-05:002013-02-11T15:26:11.125-05:00Ah, dear E - Not at all surprised...sad, but not s...Ah, dear E - Not at all surprised...sad, but not surprised. Six years as a church administrator in a demand-i-nation (that's what I called the not Episcopal church I slaved in for a bit)made it quite clear that "love one another" was not on the list of "rules" for either pastoral behavior or congregational intent ... endless checklists of "pedigree" before scheduling any sort of service (weddings, baptisms, funerals, pastoral visits, ad infinitum) ... love one another if, but, except ... if a member in "good standing", but not if it's inconvenient or might ruffle someone's feathers, except when "they" are not likely to "pay back" the favor or, gasp!, not appreciate the prayerfully considered charity ... toss off all indifference to actual human beings with a pithy verse quotation (out of context, of course), walk away with a shrug and blame all on a lack of unlimited resources ... never mind that what was truly radical about Christ's message was that it meant love without bounds, as well as you possibly can, everyone, at all times, without regard for whatever diverse descriptive might apply or administrative process. While I have been fortunate not to have encountered any truly ignorant clergy in my lengthy and multi-denominational church history, I have met far too many indifferent poachers of the Word ... just makes me sad, the self-imposed limitations, the concessions to defeat before even trying to actually follow the One because, well, you know, human error. Indifference in a vestment is not hate, but it sure isn't helping ... not the church, not the people, not the God of love who no doubt wishes we would stop fixating on the reward and get that when we love one another the killing stops and the peace proceeds. Here endeth today's mini-rant.Marthenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-28031002594141686212013-02-11T15:14:35.161-05:002013-02-11T15:14:35.161-05:00Could you give us an idea of what you (or the GOE ...Could you give us an idea of what you (or the GOE board) think would consider a good answer to this question? That would be interesting for us lait folk who don't have the benefit of a seminary education. <br /><br />Thanks again for all the great posts -- they are always enjoyable to read.<br /><br />John BartonJMB3https://www.blogger.com/profile/05658225396840235492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-75541083150790703742013-02-11T13:48:07.246-05:002013-02-11T13:48:07.246-05:00I wasn't being critical of the process or the ...I wasn't being critical of the process or the GOE, yes indeed, one needs a method of determining if a candidate is ready for ordination. It was the answers to the GOE that needled me. <br /><br />It would be like calling 911:<br /><br />"My husband is having a heart attack. Please send an ambulance." <br /><br />"Membership number please?"<br /><br />"Membership? What membership? My husband is going to die, please send someone quickly!"<br /><br />"I am sorry ma'm, but until we have your membership number, we will not be able to provide that service."Sextanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02869179401767968180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-56618699052019935872013-02-11T13:46:18.985-05:002013-02-11T13:46:18.985-05:00I guess what I wonder about are those candidates f...I guess what I wonder about are those candidates from dioceses where you don't go to seminary to get ordained -- they don't take formal classes (Except those that are locally taught). Perhaps the GOE's are still useful to the Bishop to determine if s/he thinks its okay to recommend ordination to the standing committee, but I wonder how they are going to get adequate training to complete them when everyone is off doing their own thing. Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16855171851801011788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-59168502279841226992013-02-11T13:21:46.458-05:002013-02-11T13:21:46.458-05:00Sextant - The thing of it is that if you are going...Sextant - The thing of it is that if you are going to expect a level of proficiency for those who are candidates for ordination in a particular denomination before ordination, you've got a right to test for proficiency. It may not be important to Jesus (and probably isn't) but human institutions have to have standards of accountability. In a perfect world......Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-12102876345131757582013-02-11T13:19:22.699-05:002013-02-11T13:19:22.699-05:00Lynne J - I think there is a huge disconnect somew...Lynne J - I think there is a huge disconnect somewhere along the line.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-68163230633377473962013-02-11T13:18:38.318-05:002013-02-11T13:18:38.318-05:00Ann, after reflection on your observation, I have ...Ann, after reflection on your observation, I have removed the direct quotes - even though they weren't attributed to anyone and, in fact, could not be directly attributed to anyone. I think I can make my point without them. Thanks.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-51128620037494948912013-02-11T11:57:13.653-05:002013-02-11T11:57:13.653-05:00Hi Elizabeth - I'm a little unsettled about yo...Hi Elizabeth - I'm a little unsettled about your having posted quotations from GOEs. This is supposed to be an anonymous and confidential process.<br /> - Anne LeVequemalevequehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05124846127358862599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-37267376134672396472013-02-11T10:36:49.429-05:002013-02-11T10:36:49.429-05:00Here is my take on the world's religions. The...Here is my take on the world's religions. They are all inspired by God, and they are all corrupted by the hand of human beings.<br /><br />On any action one can ask who does this serve? God, the individual, or the edifice of the religion? <br /><br />Does God really give a damn about sprinkling water on foreheads? <br /><br />Is a Divine Soul condemned to hell because it wasn't fully immersed? <br /><br />Yes religions need to preserve their brand in the spiritual market, but let's not get carried away with the idea that God believes in these rules. <br /><br />You can minister to the people and serve God or you can minister to the church and serve the church. There may in the end be a need for both, but they are probably not to be found in the same individual. <br /><br />Great post as always. Sextanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02869179401767968180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-70923542313997912562013-02-11T09:09:32.929-05:002013-02-11T09:09:32.929-05:00Wow. As a seminarian who's hope is in becomin...Wow. As a seminarian who's hope is in becoming a Board Certified Chaplain and not ordination, I am shocked and concerned by this. It makes me wonder if there is a correlation between the seminary education and the hard hearted responses and the student. Lynne J.noreply@blogger.com