tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post605417590014878928..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: I wish I had Robin Morgan's ovaries.Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-31228718088630957812008-02-08T17:25:00.000-05:002008-02-08T17:25:00.000-05:00And then there's this ...MSNBC's Chelsea comment a...And then there's this ...<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_el_pr/msnbc_clinton" REL="nofollow">MSNBC's Chelsea comment angers Clinton</A> <BR/><BR/>SEATTLE - A distasteful comment about Chelsea Clinton by an MSNBC anchor could imperil Hillary Rodham Clinton's participation in future presidential debates on the network, a Clinton spokesman said. <BR/> <BR/>In a conference call with reporters, Clinton communications director Howard Wolfson on Friday excoriated MSNBC's David Shuster for suggesting the Clinton campaign had "pimped out" 27-year old Chelsea by having her place phone calls to celebrities and Democratic Party "superdelegates" on her mother's behalf.<BR/><BR/>Wolfson called Shuster's comment "beneath contempt" and disgusting.<BR/><BR/>"I, at this point, can't envision a scenario where we would continue to engage in debates on that network," he added.<BR/><BR/>MSNBC said Shuster, who apologized on the air for his comment, has been temporarily suspended from appearing on all NBC news broadcasts except to offer his apology.<BR/>[...]Mike in Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324396563818549026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-89158272326923118952008-02-08T14:43:00.000-05:002008-02-08T14:43:00.000-05:00No one - including Robin Morgan - ever said that H...No one - including Robin Morgan - ever said that Hillary is perfect. Just pointing out that, as a woman, she's facing the formidable forces of sexism. <BR/><BR/>As a member of God's Rainbow Tribe, I have been disappointed by both Clintons' track record on issues that concern us. I have also watched her court the Religious Right and posture herself as a moderate. While it's caused me pain, I understand this is what is required of political ambition.<BR/><BR/>If Obama is nominated, I will not hesitate to cast my vote for him. Whoever wins the nomination, I hope they are both wise enough to seek the other as Veep.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-24641747155349170172008-02-08T14:25:00.001-05:002008-02-08T14:25:00.001-05:00Well, Doxy, I am a literate woman and I did not co...Well, Doxy, I am a literate woman and I did not come away with that impression at all. I also don't see strong words coming from an obvious place of truth to be "firing" on each other. Speaking the' truth in love' is holy work, requiring persistence and courage. <BR/><BR/>Read Matt 15:21-28 for one example from scripture, wherein Jesus is confronted not only with his own sexism and racism, but by the narrowness of his own understanding of his vision for his mission and ministry.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-74595418749724328922008-02-08T14:25:00.000-05:002008-02-08T14:25:00.000-05:00This piece almost gave me pause to reconsider my v...This piece almost gave me pause to reconsider my vote for Obama. And should Clinton become the Democratic nominee, I will definitely cast my vote for her.<BR/><BR/>My problems with Hillary have nothing to do with her gender, but are with her record. Supporters of Hillary seem to forget the past 6 years she has spent courting the right wing, voting (with seeming enthusiasm, if memory serves) in support of the war in Iraq, and attempting to cozy up to evangelical Christian voters. I used to be an unabashed supporter of Hillary -- heck, 6 years ago I would have voted for her with no hesitation.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, over the years, she seems to have drifted toward becoming a moderate Republican -- even on social issues. Doesn't anyone remember the LOGO forum back in August, where she advocated that equal marriage rights for GLBT people should be a state's rights issue? Remember how that worked with slavery, folks? GLBT supporters of Hillary seem to forget her comments on that day, and frankly, those comments frightened me. Sure, it might not be so bad for those of you in states that are moving forward toward civil unions and marriage equality, but for those of us stuck in a Red State, the picture is not so rosy (and at times is in fact downright scary - my state voted enthusiastically for Huckabee, the wannabe theocrat). I tried searching on her website to find anything about GLBT issues, and I couldn't find her current stance. It's not included under "issues" and I couldn't find it anywhere else.<BR/><BR/>GLBT equality, while of course important to me, is not the only issue I am voting on. Over the past 6 or so years, I've felt betrayed by almost every statement that has come out of Hillary's mouth. What she says NOW that she's campaigning for President makes me feel a little better about her, but I can't get over my sense of distrust and betrayal.<BR/><BR/>I also share much of Friar John's frustration at the reaction of Hillary supporters to other Democrats who support another candidate. Her supporters are quick to call those critical of Hillary misogynist or even self-hating feminists, but seem loathe to engage regarding Hillary's track record on the issues. <BR/><BR/>I suspect Hillary will be the nominee, and I'll support her at that time and hope for the best. But won't hold my breath waiting for her to keep any of her promises to women, the GLBT community, and the poor and otherwise marginalized.Suzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03529580138314011952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-263560034501600852008-02-08T09:48:00.000-05:002008-02-08T09:48:00.000-05:00It surprised me as well, Elizabeth. To me the the...It surprised me as well, Elizabeth. To me the the Robin Morgan essay is more like a reality check (as is the "Obama Wept" article). I don't see either of them as attack pieces. <BR/><BR/>It's a shame that this sort of animosity is developing between fans of the various candidates. Considering what we've had for the last 8 years, I would consider either one of the Dems to be a great blessing, even though I do happen to think one of them is a bit more qualified than the other.Mike in Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324396563818549026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-16610480600686047912008-02-08T09:41:00.000-05:002008-02-08T09:41:00.000-05:00Elizabeth--I don't know how any literate person co...Elizabeth--I don't know how any literate person could read Morgan's piece and not come away with the impression that, if you are a woman (especially one who claims to be a feminist), you have an obligation to vote for Hillary.<BR/><BR/>I'm tired of the "if you are a REAL ________ you will vote for ________" crap. It's that kind of thinking that kept Bush in office in 2004.<BR/><BR/>That said, I share Mike's concerns about Obama-mania---and Morgan's about the deeply misogynist attacks on Hillary. We are in new territory here, and I think it's a big mistake for us to fire on each other.<BR/><BR/>Pax,<BR/>DoxyWormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-51676008079105506382008-02-08T09:22:00.000-05:002008-02-08T09:22:00.000-05:00MiT: I have been astounded by the sense of person...MiT: I have been astounded by the sense of personal attack that some have felt about this. Either that, or they hear a nefarious campaign plug. This is my blog - a place where I can express my opinion or explore the data while forming one. Just because I feel a certain way doesn't mean that anyone who holds a different opinion is wrong or lacks the 'perfect feminist credentials'. Yo! Where the hell is THAT coming from?<BR/><BR/>The other reaction, of course, is the 'high holy' ground of 'social evolution'. What gender? What color? People my age don't see that.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, right. That's the most dangerous position of all. Even Jesus knew a Samaritan from a Galilean and a woman from a man. <BR/><BR/>And, as we learn in this Sunday's lectionary, even Satan can quote scripture.<BR/><BR/>Your essay "And Obama Wept" will get you in the same trouble this one has gotten me. Whatever. It's your blog. It's your intelligence. As long as you use both to "think out loud" and let others listen in as you do so, you'll find yourself in some sort of trouble.<BR/><BR/>Welcome to hot end of the Baptismal Water.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-83005187664951870052008-02-08T08:56:00.000-05:002008-02-08T08:56:00.000-05:00Hmmmm .... Interesting reactions to Robin Morgan's...Hmmmm .... Interesting reactions to Robin Morgan's essay. But none of them seemed to address issues like the nutcracker versus the tap-dancing doll. <BR/><BR/>I've just posted my thoughts about this lack of attention to detail on my blog. It probably isn't a popular position ... but it's mine. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://rallianceblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/and-obama-wept.html" REL="nofollow">And Obama Wept</A>Mike in Texashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324396563818549026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-4040047473374348632008-02-08T01:59:00.000-05:002008-02-08T01:59:00.000-05:00I generally don't carry psychological baggage. I ...I generally don't carry psychological baggage. I open it up and strew it around the room. No point in leaving everyone else out. <BR/><BR/>Frair John, <BR/><BR/>I am sorry that happened to you. I never cease to be amazed at and despair over a civilization that constantly says "You're in group x, so you think y and z. Thank you! Next!"MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-85203467540705644982008-02-07T21:41:00.000-05:002008-02-07T21:41:00.000-05:00Robin raises excellent points.but, at points, it s...Robin raises excellent points.<BR/><BR/>but, at points, it sounds like she's ranking oppressions. being a woman is more oppressive than being Black.<BR/><BR/>I'm a feminist. one of the things that I, at least, learned in women's studies is: there is no ranking of oppression.<BR/><BR/>Hillary Clinton is a strong, competent stateswoman. but I will not vote for a woman because I am a feminist, any more than I will vote for a person of color because I am a person of color.<BR/><BR/>and I will not trust her to get us out of Iraq. John Kerry came back after Vietnam and essentially admitted he, and many other American soldiers, was guilty of war crimes. he said that the war was killing our soul, and that it should end. I'm not sure he really lived up to that spirit.<BR/><BR/>mind you, I'd trust Hillary to stop the war much more than I'd trust, say, McCain (who I do respect deeply). but Presidents of both parties have a long tradition of committing crimes against humanity and walking away scot-free. whether it's Hillary, Obama, or McCain, they will have to be held accountable, and Americans concerned about peace will have much work to do to make sure the next generation gives up their warmongering ways.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17851789276439393822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-86031323294030161042008-02-07T17:37:00.000-05:002008-02-07T17:37:00.000-05:00My dear FJ - Yes, you do make a great deal of sens...My dear FJ - Yes, you do make a great deal of sense. We each come at this from our own experience. Internalized oppression - aka "oppression sickness" is probably the worst to see, as you have observed. <BR/><BR/>I don't know how many RC nuns do it - unless you are someone like Sr. Joan and can carve out a forum for your own voice. That does not justify in any way, cruelty in any form. That's called 'oppression sickness.'<BR/><BR/>That doesn't mean that there ought not be righteous anger expressed when injustice occurs. That must be expressed judiciously if it is to be effective. I posted this because I think Ms. Morgan is not only intelligent and articulate, in my experience, she says the things I wish I had the courage to say.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-45814536031049491212008-02-07T17:11:00.000-05:002008-02-07T17:11:00.000-05:00Doxy and Bill - no one is saying anyone has to vot...Doxy and Bill - no one is saying anyone has to vote for Hillary and if they don't they should burn any membership card in any politically correct organization. Not Ms. Morgan. Certainly not me.<BR/><BR/>Ms. Morgan is boldly reporting her experience. Disturbing? You bet. If you haven't lived it, well, you have no idea. And if you have, well, you may not like it, you may have made your peace with it, but you can't deny that she's telling the truth.<BR/><BR/>Carrying around too much psychological baggage? <BR/>It's not about the past so much as it is the present. Don't believe it? Well, even in the Diocese of Newark, the highest paid rector who is a woman is still making far, far less than some of the men who are in "lesser sized" congregations. <BR/><BR/>This has obviously touched some nerves. That's exactly what Ms. Morgan does and what I wish I had the ovaries to do - more often, at least.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-3691451452405597972008-02-07T14:02:00.000-05:002008-02-07T14:02:00.000-05:00So, Elizabeth---as an out-loud feminist (in the Bi...So, Elizabeth---as an out-loud feminist (in the Bible Belt, even!) am I <I>required</I> to support Hillary?<BR/><BR/>Seems like you don't leave any room for those of us who are passionate about feminism, but don't choose to support HRC. Will NOW be sending someone along shortly to repossess my Feminist Card if I vote for Obama?<BR/><BR/>Bottom line---I don't trust Hillary. I deplore the crap she takes from the media, but unless there's been some change in the definition of feminist to include "must vote for all women candidates, no matter what," I am not required to vote for someone I don't trust, even if she DOES have ovaries.<BR/><BR/>Both you and Robin Morgan might consider that women do have minds of their own, and might even have solid reasons to vote for someone other than HRC---reasons that are not rooted in sexism or self-hatred.<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>DoxyWormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-5319911320152627332008-02-07T13:42:00.000-05:002008-02-07T13:42:00.000-05:00I think everybody is carrying around too much psyc...I think everybody is carrying around too much psychological baggage. Just step back and forget for a minute that you are black or white or male or female or Catholic or Jew. Take a deep breath and ask yourself what does this country need right now. Right now after seven plus years of idiocy. Right now after being stuck in another God awful war. Right now when the lines between church and state have been blurred. Right now with yet another deficit. Then go out and vote with your heart and your head. What we don’t need is a male vs. female issue – or a black vs. white issue. We need a competent leader. Maybe even someone who can spell competent.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05623709712119761741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-78307508307349302282008-02-07T12:21:00.000-05:002008-02-07T12:21:00.000-05:00dar Friar JohnMight I suggest that you, Elizabeth+...dar Friar John<BR/>Might I suggest that you, Elizabeth+ and Robin are saying is essentially the same thing: to be denied one's humanity is a terrible, painful and often debilitating thing.<BR/>It only gets messy, confusing and even hurtful when we 'dress up' our pain with terminology or dogma.<BR/>Not knowing me, you might find it strange to know that literally cheered this morning, when reading Robin's essay- without necessarily agreeing with every word, but as one blessed to be gay,I know in m bones that much she bore witness to is the lived experience of too many women.<BR/>Likewise, your pain and frustration at being propritorially censored registered with me from too much personal experience.<BR/>In each case, judgement has taken place- an act which is implicitly objectifying.<BR/>Proving my point is as easy as presuming to re-cast Elizabeth+'s 'default position' into 'defining woundedness.'<BR/>Sitting here for some time after reading and re-reading all of you, I can't help but feel how close the three of you really are. I wish I might be able to introduce the three of you in person- and then sit down and listen to you share and grow in appreciation for your common experience.<BR/>Only two conditions for the meetings tho: all terminology gets left at the door, and I get a hug from each of you on the way out as thanks!<BR/>David@MontrealDavid@Montrealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08447479118332347163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-15652479216947665262008-02-07T10:30:00.000-05:002008-02-07T10:30:00.000-05:00I came in from a meeting at Church where I was inf...I came in from a meeting at Church where I was informed of how I felt. I'm serious, when I objected to something I was told that I couldn't actually hold an opinion like the one I had, and if I did I was to refrain from sharing since she (the speaker) knew the mind of my generation better. She then rattled off a bunch of stuff I didn't recognize. I was HOT when I came home.<BR/>I grew up thinking of age as a purely subjective thing. In my extended family, I had a Great-Great Uncle who died at 107 and lived alone until three days before his death. I also watched recently as a cousin died at 38 from ALS. I work with High school kids and they have amazing ideas (both good and bad but always breathtaking) about a variety of topics and they tend to be the victims of (hopefully) well meaning adults who make decisions based on what they "want" and need but tend not to pay them the time of day.<BR/>In all of these things, I've come to find that one of the biggest mistakes we can make is to speak to another’s experience with out examining wither or not we are actually speaking from our own to the exclusion of the other.<BR/>If I could give an example of where there is a misconnection, it would be the Religious life in general and Nuns in particular. The anger, contempt and disgust I have seen evidenced in the behavior towards Nuns by “liberated” women and men is breath taking. I mean some of the most openly misogynistic things I have been a witness to recently was the way several women priests acted behind the back of a Nun. If they had heard a man saying those sorts of things they would have been going to the bishop with complaints! A Nun in habit is even more of a target. When I took one to task for her behavior I was told to (quite literally) “shut up.” I just “didn’t understand” how much “damage” the religious were doing to women. Men in habits often face as much hostility and nastiness as nuns.<BR/>Women involved in vocational discernment have been heard to say “Why do you *JUST* want to be a nun? Why not a priest or Deacon?” which is sort of like saying “just a nurse” and “why not a doctor?” I am gob smacked every time I see this. And if you (speaking generically) don’t see it, maybe it is because you are unable to. “Liberation” must look like X but never Y and in no ways could it be z. I see some of that kind of reasoning in the essay. Motivations must be as the, privileged by liberation, viewer are. No other explanation can exist. Anything that deviates from the way it was decided they should be is “bad.” <BR/>I don’t pretend to understand sexism, but I do see it. To say that it trumps any other form of discrimination privileges a victimization. Internalized forms of it lashing out in incomprehension is also counter productive. Justifying the fight against one by engaging in another is also counter productive.<BR/>Am I making any sense?Frair Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03855036304956508405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-39157778414702694522008-02-07T10:24:00.000-05:002008-02-07T10:24:00.000-05:00Re: Ovaries ... you doRe: Robin Morgan ... she tot...Re: Ovaries ... you do<BR/><BR/>Re: Robin Morgan ... she totally rocks<BR/><BR/>Thanks for posting this ... I think I've gotten it via email from at least a dozen different sources over the last few days. It deserves the widest possible circulation ... Brava!SUSAN RUSSELLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01795717638621668638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-38318915357668871592008-02-07T09:49:00.000-05:002008-02-07T09:49:00.000-05:00It took awhile before I understood that HRC referr...It took awhile before I understood that HRC referred to Hillary. I have a gold and blue HRC sticker on my car. It has nothing to do with Hillary tho I suspect she supports that campaign as well.PseudoPiskiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12070541512355253553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-37988346966731026312008-02-07T08:36:00.000-05:002008-02-07T08:36:00.000-05:00"Insulting? Angsty and Vulnerable?"I think Ms. Mor..."Insulting? Angsty and Vulnerable?"<BR/><BR/>I think Ms. Morgan's work here is done. <BR/><BR/>We all have our own default positions, don't we FJ? Mine is sexism. Yours is agism. I don't think she was talking to you or to people of your generation, necessarily - except, perhaps, to let you know what it's been like - continues to be like - to be a woman in this culture. <BR/><BR/>But, what she writes rings absolutely true to my own experience as a woman in this world. Layer onto that heterosexism and homophobia and you know, there are some days I wonder how I get out of bed, much less get anything done.<BR/><BR/>Sorry if I sound like a "Boomer" (ya gotta know how insulting THAT feels), but I'm speaking the truth from my own experience. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for appreciating and honoring that perspective.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-31113639142935159722008-02-06T23:08:00.000-05:002008-02-06T23:08:00.000-05:00I'm sorry. That was unworthy of your posting. I'm ...I'm sorry. That was unworthy of your posting. I'm just feeling .. angsty and vulnerable. I'm very sorry to have lashed out.Frair Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03855036304956508405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-35328883650765350162008-02-06T22:57:00.000-05:002008-02-06T22:57:00.000-05:00It is so nice to be told how I really feel since M...It is so nice to be told how I really feel since Ms morgan knows me so well ...<BR/><BR/>Do you know how deeply insulating and condescending I find this rant? Do you know how hurt I am to be lumped in with all kinds of other people who do and say disgusting things because I like another candidate better? <BR/>Her reverse ageism is breath taking. I was expecting for her to tell us to go back tot he pay ground and never dare to question the Boomer consensus again. of course being a woman of her generation and her vast experience she MUSt know my generations mind so much better than we do.Frair Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03855036304956508405noreply@blogger.com