tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post636819908622285413..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: O, be some other name!Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-83275387871897334992010-03-14T22:51:00.897-04:002010-03-14T22:51:00.897-04:00I didn't get very far "in the process&quo...I didn't get very far "in the process" [Don't get me started! >:-/ *], but if I had, I would have been known as "Father F". Probably most people who know me IRL (but not well) associate me w/ my female appearance (and, well, chromosomes), rather than my GenderQueer ID.<br /><br />But there's no way I would have been called "Mother." [I don't doubt there's probably some internalized misogyny there...but hey, Life's Too Short to be called anything other than what makes you comfortable, no matter WHO you are!]<br /><br />Reading histories of 19th c. Britain, it's notable how the British Cardinals are always referred to as "Doctor": Dr Weisman, Dr Manning, Dr Newman. I like it---it would have worked, for me---but I can't see US Episcopalians appreciating the distinction...<br /><br />[* The Vocation Handbook for my diocese said that a candidate had to "Appreciate the gifts of one's gender" . . . I always wanted to reply "Can I appreciate the gifts of BOTH my genders?" >;-)]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-8031001163941036122010-03-13T14:36:28.013-05:002010-03-13T14:36:28.013-05:00Oh, and regardless of churchersonship or anything ...Oh, and regardless of churchersonship or anything else, a female priest with the surname "Church" simply has to be "Mother Church" - as a male priest surnamed "Christmas" (there were two brothjers in this ecclesiastical province) has to be "Father Christmas."Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-9957274819833972722010-03-13T14:34:48.643-05:002010-03-13T14:34:48.643-05:00I recall, in my naval career, a discussion with a ...I recall, in my naval career, a discussion with a female officer who hated being called "ma'am" and thought we should all go to the Star Fleet Command practice of referring to all officers as "sir," regardless of sex.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-46252633567114780432010-03-13T12:58:26.480-05:002010-03-13T12:58:26.480-05:00Dahveed - I vaguely remember the article you wrote...Dahveed - I vaguely remember the article you wrote. I especially remember the "Austin" part. I love the romance of it.<br /><br />I'm coming to the conclusion that, whatever shakes up the dominant paradigm is a good thing. Maybe it's the combination of "Mother", "La Reverenda", etc., that will help us come to understand that the playing field needs to be leveled - in all aspects of life, but especially in the fields of Gospel work.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-54100033543866177612010-03-13T12:55:06.021-05:002010-03-13T12:55:06.021-05:00Mother Ellie - my dear, dear friend of my heart - ...Mother Ellie - my dear, dear friend of my heart - I remember well both articles and the tempest it caused. I would fight for the right to always have women name their own reality, and your argument has always made perfect sense. That being said, it really doesn't work for me. I've played with "Pastor" but, well, Elizabeth it is.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-42020638130950429612010-03-13T12:44:34.233-05:002010-03-13T12:44:34.233-05:00Madre Lizabet, you probably never saw when I wrote...Madre Lizabet, you probably never saw when I wrote about our family's surnames over a year ago, but I also mentioned my parent's names.<br /><br />My mother is Lizabet Alejandra Secor de la Rosa. Everyone calls her Lizabet (Lētsabet). My father is Pedro Xavier Allen Gonzalez, just Pedro for him.<br /><br />So because we get the first surname of each parent, my siblings and I get these English looking names Allen Secor. I am David Austin Allen Secor. I was an unexpected accident when my folks had thought they were beyond their child rearing years. They tell me that they always wanted me to know that I was beloved, hence David. Austin was the city of my blessed conception, my mother's first journey to the USA, a business trip with my Papá.<br /><br />Handling titles for women in what were traditionally men's roles is also confusing in Spanish. There are not many women in the Mexican military and the few who are are mainly medical personnel; doctors, dentists and nurses. So their rank is in the masculine form with the feminine definite article; la sergento. But in the church we feminized both parts, hence la obispa, la reverenda, etc. Although Roman Catholics have a tendency to correct us thinking it was a mistake because they cannot fathom a woman in these roles!Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67301846899726180232010-03-13T11:57:24.455-05:002010-03-13T11:57:24.455-05:00ressing women priests as "Mother" Did w...ressing women priests as "Mother" Did we ever get into trouA very long time ago, after the first "regular" Ordinations of Women to the Priesthood, a small group of us, all, Anglo-Catholic in our theology/spirituality/liturgical style, +Geri Wolf(then a priest), Julia Gatta+, myself and one other woman whose name I'm blanking on, wrote an article for the Dio. of Massachusetts "The Church Militant" with reasoning theological and from Tradition for able!! I agree, where male priests are Father, should be Mother...The title "Father" indeed came from the Religious Life, for monastic priests were held in higher esteem, better Confessors, less likely to bed down the village girls, etc. If there is nothing wrong with "Father" with its history, I find no problem with "Mother"--indeed a good description of many priestly ways of being, and for me, the basis of my early theological argument for women's ordination, "in Persona Christi" after the long tradition of addressing and experience Jesus as Mother...See my article in Nashotah Review(vol.15, Fall, 1975), first in English to source this understanding of the Second Person, from the time of Clement of Alexandria, St. Bernard, St. Anselm, Dame Julian and many others. Mother Ellie it is. <br />Eleanor McLaughlin+NorthCountryVicarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604979700932338159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-75428103771032268432010-03-13T11:55:58.846-05:002010-03-13T11:55:58.846-05:00ressing women priests as "Mother" Did w...ressing women priests as "Mother" Did we ever get into trouA very long time ago, after the first "regular" Ordinations of Women to the Priesthood, a small group of us, all, Anglo-Catholic in our theology/spirituality/liturgical style, +Geri Wolf(then a priest), Julia Gatta+, myself and one other woman whose name I'm blanking on, wrote an article for the Dio. of Massachusetts "The Church Militant" with reasoning theological and from Tradition for able!! I agree, where male priests are Father, should be Mother...The title "Father" indeed came from the Religious Life, for monastic priests were held in higher esteem, better Confessors, less likely to bed down the village girls, etc. If there is nothing wrong with "Father" with its history, I find no problem with "Mother"--indeed a good description of many priestly ways of being, and for me, the basis of my early theological argument for women's ordination, "in Persona Christi" after the long tradition of addressing and experience Jesus as Mother...See my article in Nashotah Review(vol.15, Fall, 1975), first in English to source this understanding of the Second Person, from the time of Clement of Alexandria, St. Bernard, St. Anselm, Dame Julian and many others. Mother Ellie it is. <br />Eleanor McLaughlin+NorthCountryVicarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03604979700932338159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-76764085633342000402010-03-13T08:59:57.161-05:002010-03-13T08:59:57.161-05:00"Priest Joanne"?? She's got the righ..."Priest Joanne"?? She's got the right to call herself whatever she wants but it just doesn't ring well on my ears. Neither does "Mother" although "Mother Church" is a hoot. Elizabeth is what God calls me so it's okay for everyone else. Besides, my mother insisted on it and I think even God is afraid to contradict her.<br /><br />Dahveed - A dear friend calls me "Liza". It's the only nickname I allow. I confess, I do love it. (And I never mind it when you call me "Madre")Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-53557520132444931062010-03-12T23:01:43.301-05:002010-03-12T23:01:43.301-05:00All you lovely female priests should be called by ...All you lovely female priests should be called by your title of preference. Elizabeth, at this point, I'd find it difficult to call you Mother Kaeton, but if you wanted me to, I would.<br /><br />Mother Church, you made me laugh. Sorry about that. Do you often get teased?<br /><br />Age has its privileges, and I don't generally call male priests father.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-60431141736598995612010-03-12T21:35:15.740-05:002010-03-12T21:35:15.740-05:00I **hope**I am consistent in using "Rev Eliza...I **hope**I am consistent in using "Rev Elizabeth" except on FB where brevity leads me to Rev E. I work on the basis that it is your name, not mine and you get to make the call.I do not have a problem with 'mother' but 'reverend mother' would bother me.<br /><br />I think the world would be better if we dropped both reverend and father in favor of priest the way most folks use deacon and bishop. but then in Chicago we have been known to use, "Right Reverend Sir" in convention....<br /><br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-37698818362289589632010-03-12T20:49:00.672-05:002010-03-12T20:49:00.672-05:00I was raised in the "Biretta Belt," and ...I was raised in the "Biretta Belt," and all the priests I ever knew were called "Fr. X." I know women who are bothered by the nunnery connotation of "mother," but I find I am not. It is simply the equivalent title for a woman leading a faith community. <br /><br />These days, many (most) of my parishioners usually use my first name, unadorned; but for those who are more comfortable with a title, "Mother Jane" it is.Jane Ellen+https://www.blogger.com/profile/07930706962327994732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-56804108751288865072010-03-12T20:03:26.735-05:002010-03-12T20:03:26.735-05:00Of course, before the Catholic Revival, we were pr...Of course, before the Catholic Revival, we were pretty much "Mr.," and had it stayed that way, the use of "Mrs., Miss or Ms" would have been an easy switch. "Reverend" as a title is an abomination attached to either name.<br /><br />For most Affirming Catholics in canada, this has mostly put paid to "Father" because, by and large, our priestly sisters don't seem to much care for "Mother." The former Bishop of Edmonton (Canada) and current Bishop of Christchurch once advocated the use of "Father" for female priests as well.<br /><br />In any event, I've been contending with this for a bit as we work through the redesign of our diocesan website. One priest is insisting he wants to be "Father Bill Bloggins" vice "The Reverend Bill Bloggins" in the parish listings. ("Bloggins" being the Canadian Navy equivalent of "John Doe.") I'm actually considering listing all the clergy as "Bill Bloggins, Priest" or "Beth Bloggins, Deacon" or "Barbara Bloggins, Bishop" as appropriate.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-65946862925317074092010-03-12T19:56:38.531-05:002010-03-12T19:56:38.531-05:00Betty, no
Liz, no
But I could see you as an Eliza!...Betty, no<br />Liz, no<br />But I could see you as an Eliza!Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-91239861493023054652010-03-12T15:02:52.974-05:002010-03-12T15:02:52.974-05:00When I was first ordained, I was a chaplain at an ...When I was first ordained, I was a chaplain at an Episcopal School of my namesake, and the kids started calling me St. Margaret --and I asked why, and they said, well, it was because I had been ordained! So, I said that they should call me what they called the other priests.... the boys were horrified, and girls ecstatic --and Father Margaret stuck!<br /><br />Now --when the children need a term of respect, it's Ms. Margaret because the term 'father' doesn't go far in the south....<br /><br />And I don't do 'mother' cuz I ain't in charge of no nunnery....<br /><br />Yes, it's all in a name.<br />I knew a crazy lady in Oregon (no Mother Church, not you!!!) who always used to bow when she first saw me on Sunday mornings and greet me with: Hello Jesus, hello Margaret!<br /><br />Drove me crazy --but she might be on to something...it's margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13577280471100732619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-277623292334311212010-03-12T13:41:22.393-05:002010-03-12T13:41:22.393-05:00What I have noticed is some female priests don'...What I have noticed is some female priests don't care for "Mother" but to go "first name only" makes them look "less" in comparison to "Father"--and what do we want to teach the children?<br /><br />I suppose everyone could be quasi Lutheran and go with "pastor" but to me priests are more than just pastors. It IS a dilemma.Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-55844896675281704472010-03-12T13:07:15.576-05:002010-03-12T13:07:15.576-05:00And Im "Mother Church" though not the on...And Im "Mother Church" though not the only one. There is another Mother Church in Michigan!the Rev. Susan Churchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-40807827133520868312010-03-12T13:04:07.694-05:002010-03-12T13:04:07.694-05:00I had a small taste of this some years back when I...I had a small taste of this some years back when I was first diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Apparently this particular ailment is predominantly found in women. When I went to Muhlenberg Medical Center, I was directed to a waiting room with a sign that read Endocrinology (whatever that may be). I immediately noticed that I was the only male in the waiting area. After sitting for a while I went to one of the wall racks and started looking through all the pamphlets related to hypothyroidism. Every one had pictures of women and text talking about the female gender. Was I in the right room?? The magazine rack was piled high with mags on glamour, style, etc. Not even one issue of Field & Stream with a picture of a large mouth bass dancing on the end of a line. I felt out of place and somewhat uncomfortable. Then I started to get the looks from the other patients. Looks like, Are you lost or something? Apparently because of the very low percentage of men coming down with thyroid problems, the “powers that be” didn’t want to spend the money on producing separate pamphlets for men. The same logic held true for the available magazines. I had stepped into women’s country and didn’t know it. Then I started to worry. If this is predominantly a women’s issue and all the literature is aimed at women, would they really know anything about how this would affect the male of the species. It was no fun stepping into a situation where because of my sex, I felt out of place and vulnerable. It didn’t help when I finally saw the doctor and he decided to drag in four interns to see the male hypothyroid patient. Some years later when diagnosed with something far more serious, I was relieved that at least I had something specific to males. I had come down with prostate cancer. Oh, did I mention that I’m not quite sane.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05623709712119761741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-91865877299227638312010-03-12T12:55:00.389-05:002010-03-12T12:55:00.389-05:00Two things:
1. Of course, names matter. And gend...Two things:<br />1. Of course, names matter. And gender associations matter. Otherwise some of the snarkier of my brothers and sisters would not feel the need to pull out "priestess" for an ordained woman-- and intend to disparage thereby.<br /><br />2. There is at least one. <a href="http://www.stjohnthedivine.org" rel="nofollow">Priest Joanne</a> is a wonderful cleric serving God in Burlington, WI.Jane Ellen+https://www.blogger.com/profile/07930706962327994732noreply@blogger.com