tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post6884692596916039956..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: Speaking of GodElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88137601579451667602011-07-09T01:13:45.898-04:002011-07-09T01:13:45.898-04:00That being said, Elizabeth, I hope we may all agre...That being said, Elizabeth, I hope we may all agree that any form of praying the Holy Spirit should be discerned from the offering of the Body of Christ and again the offering of the Body of Christ is a most personal religious experience that may be shared in The Sacramental Moment. Grant us so to be joined together in unity of spirit by the teaching of Jesus and the apostles and the prophets, that we may be made a holy temple acceptable to God; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns in unity with God and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever.<br /><br />Walter Vitalewalterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02888384403637148260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-55004245223037509142011-07-09T00:41:20.733-04:002011-07-09T00:41:20.733-04:00I take you, Elizabeth, as a reflection on the actu...I take you, Elizabeth, as a reflection on the actualizing potential of expansive language: it is a grounded position on how to transcend the culture of complaint around the gender issue debate about praying. In other words is a very sound position and bodes well for the completion of inclusive language while at the same time promises flexibility with tradition. The most beautiful thing is that expansion should take place at a personal level; the religious experience is something most personal and yet bodes well in public life of prayer. Inclusive versus expansive use of language in our praying could be another interesting distinction. Grant us so to be joined together in unity of spirit by the teaching of Jesus and the apostles and the prophets, that we may be made a holy temple acceptable to God; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns in unity with God and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever.<br /><br />Walter Vitalewalterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02888384403637148260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-36404522254181105602011-07-08T22:43:36.417-04:002011-07-08T22:43:36.417-04:00JCF - I'm talking about revision which has dir...JCF - I'm talking about revision which has direct implication for print media. I love having the BCP and lectionary on my iPhone.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67236768205922818832011-07-08T21:00:00.759-04:002011-07-08T21:00:00.759-04:00do you really think we're going to see another...<i>do you really think we're going to see another print version of the BCP in the next 30-50 years? <br /></i><br /><br />Is this a question about prayerbook revision, or a question about media format ("print version")?<br /><br />Re the former: not if I don't keep raising a stink about it, apparently!<br /><br />Re the latter: certainly, an iPad (et al successors!) app for the BCP (I assume such already exists? Besides the obligatory online version(s)) would be easier to revise than a dead-tree edition...<br /><br />...but for holding close in pew, monastery or under a (other) tree, I still prefer print. But then again, I'm ancient (Yikes, almost 50! :-0)JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-2954604999996050292011-07-08T09:24:32.409-04:002011-07-08T09:24:32.409-04:00Mark - Good insight. Thank you.Mark - Good insight. Thank you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-73652306115045705002011-07-08T09:24:02.988-04:002011-07-08T09:24:02.988-04:00Susan S - I know I'm not losing any sleep over...Susan S - I know I'm not losing any sleep over it.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-20038590007904443122011-07-08T03:41:52.123-04:002011-07-08T03:41:52.123-04:00God's just God.
None of us know what that...God's just God. <br /><br />None of us know what that's like. Call God the Great Father, The Triune God, The Great Mother, The Prime Mover, Krishna, Rama, The Cosmic Christ, or Arkvoodle, if you like. The only significance to the term one uses is the significance that one attaches to it. God is male and female, but neither. God is powerful, but weak. God is nothing, and everything. Death, life. Chaos, order. <br /><br />Place too much emphasis on naming, and you make an idol you are trying to own.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-76986805134693976242011-07-07T23:55:45.323-04:002011-07-07T23:55:45.323-04:00Elizabeth, I'll be 86 if I live another 20 yea...Elizabeth, I'll be 86 if I live another 20 years. I probably shouldn't be worried about it then. ;-)susan s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03679099677585214433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-42796802784976430912011-07-07T22:25:10.841-04:002011-07-07T22:25:10.841-04:00susan s - Well, it's been more than a generati...susan s - Well, it's been more than a generation since the last revision and fifty years between the 1979 and 1928 BCP. There have been lots more changes in the last 30+ years than there were in the 50 years between 1928 and 1979. I figure, if we start talking about it now, we might just be ready in another 20 years.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88209152952201607622011-07-07T22:18:10.759-04:002011-07-07T22:18:10.759-04:00JCF - I agree with you about prayer book revision,...JCF - I agree with you about prayer book revision, but let me ask you, do you really think we're going to see another print version of the BCP in the next 30-50 years?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-48838685417066458422011-07-07T22:16:56.161-04:002011-07-07T22:16:56.161-04:00David and John - Expansive language means just tha...David and John - Expansive language means just that - we expand on what already is. Take the old and build on it to make more options.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-41563423592189578282011-07-07T22:16:44.195-04:002011-07-07T22:16:44.195-04:00Oh, David and John. I totally agree with you on th...Oh, David and John. I totally agree with you on the second paragraph. I almost said as much in my comments.susan s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03679099677585214433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-58157740429251488922011-07-07T22:12:48.967-04:002011-07-07T22:12:48.967-04:00Susankay - Isn't it interesting how some peopl...Susankay - Isn't it interesting how some people will hold onto their childhood images of God and wonder why their faith life is stagnant?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84783059933460456942011-07-07T20:48:25.466-04:002011-07-07T20:48:25.466-04:00For over 20 years, when I profess the Nicene Creed...For over 20 years, when I profess the Nicene Creed at mass, I've jiggled the sentence structure to say of the HS, "Who" [I got the idea from a late 80s Inclusive Language Trial Liturgy I used at St Stephen's, Portland OR. It apparently was never heard from again.]<br /><br />While I think of the HS as "She", I find "Who" works well in the Creed, publicly (for purposes of "not shocking the horses". And, <i>Pneuma</i> is neuter in Greek. So gender-free is a perfectly respectable way to go)<br /><br />I would never call the HS "He" at this point. Nuh-uh.<br /><br />I believe, passionately, in <b>prayerbook-revision</b>, BEGINNING ASAP. I would like an inclusive OPTION for the Creed to be part of this. [Whereas inclusifying the language for the couple in the Marriage Rite(s) is MANDATORY!]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-22132704170346566782011-07-07T20:42:56.845-04:002011-07-07T20:42:56.845-04:00I am all for "expansive language" and th...I am all for "expansive language" and the use of gender-neutral words, just not at the expense of revising the BCP or totally abolishing ancient, traditional terminology. We can expand our "liturgical vocabulary" and keep our traditions at the same time. It need not be an either/or proposition but rather a both/and situation.<br /><br />Besides, we have enough troubles in the church today without bringing up revising the BCP or the hymnal. 30 years after the last BCP revision and we are still suffering the fallout (and this observation is from one who thinks the 1928 BCP badly needed revision and is glad it happened).David and Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09545394141617985139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-18363195578066189922011-07-07T19:09:54.330-04:002011-07-07T19:09:54.330-04:00And note that my childhood vision of God-the-Fathe...And note that my childhood vision of God-the-Father-as-Lincoln-<br />Memorial involved a God who was cast in granite and didn't move or breathe or do anything except watch. (He was a civil rights advocate, tho')susankayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513759507628166408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67137821855041717142011-07-07T18:03:29.612-04:002011-07-07T18:03:29.612-04:00Susankay - I think Enriching Our Worship offers lo...Susankay - I think Enriching Our Worship offers lots of really great alternative language that, well, enriches worship.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-31625376492231401012011-07-07T18:02:48.960-04:002011-07-07T18:02:48.960-04:00Turtle Woman - I guess I'm concerned about any...Turtle Woman - I guess I'm concerned about any hard and fast "no" about any expression of God on any point of the spectrum.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-1356453953095975662011-07-07T18:01:22.639-04:002011-07-07T18:01:22.639-04:00Turtle Woman - Wasn't it Mary Daley who said, ...Turtle Woman - Wasn't it Mary Daley who said, "If God is male, then male is god"? Brilliant.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-64957409366067619042011-07-07T18:00:36.460-04:002011-07-07T18:00:36.460-04:00Jim, I can't remember the source but there is ...Jim, I can't remember the source but there is a poem (by Ruth Duck, perhaps?) that has the Holy Spirit saying, "He, He, He, He. ... hehehehehe" Your comment about the Holy Spirit laughing reminded me of that.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-60204686994737135942011-07-07T17:57:56.654-04:002011-07-07T17:57:56.654-04:00Dom - I think that the Enriching Our Worship serie...Dom - I think that the Enriching Our Worship series contains some really fine examples of expansive language. What you wrote is a fine example.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-33621252458262697972011-07-07T17:56:39.818-04:002011-07-07T17:56:39.818-04:00Michael - I agree. It's about the relationship...Michael - I agree. It's about the relationship we have with our Triune God.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-76100169023377472662011-07-07T17:55:59.332-04:002011-07-07T17:55:59.332-04:00Thanks, Sr. Heather. I think "expansive"...Thanks, Sr. Heather. I think "expansive" language is a real game changer.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-91073018657150047692011-07-07T17:55:18.016-04:002011-07-07T17:55:18.016-04:00Hutch - I often prefer gender-neutral terms, but s...Hutch - I often prefer gender-neutral terms, but sometimes, I need God to be the father - or mother - I never had. It's very personal.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-15901094275873141482011-07-07T15:38:13.953-04:002011-07-07T15:38:13.953-04:00Once I stopped believing in a God who bore a stron...Once I stopped believing in a God who bore a strong resemblance to the Lincoln Memorial except for Goddish robes, I have never believed God was a man. Talk about making God in your own image -- assigning a gender to a transcendant wonder seems nutso.<br /><br />We use "Enriching our Worship" and then tweek it a bit more -- I find it somewhat jarring when I attend church in another parish where they simply use Rite 2.susankayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513759507628166408noreply@blogger.com