tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post9145447125565729698..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: Anglican Covenant: Fate or Faith?Elizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-17592964373330576542009-04-11T15:29:00.000-04:002009-04-11T15:29:00.000-04:00Elizabeth, we noticed.Elizabeth, we noticed.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50455092266492988042009-04-11T15:24:00.000-04:002009-04-11T15:24:00.000-04:00I know. I know, Muthah+, but that's why they did ...I know. I know, Muthah+, but that's why they did it, I suspect - hoping to slip it under the wire while most people are too busy to look too closely.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-12611863288173013392009-04-11T11:50:00.000-04:002009-04-11T11:50:00.000-04:00Not now! Not now. I need to stay focused on East...Not now! Not now. I need to stay focused on Easter! How does a covanant declare the freedom of the Empty Tomb?Muthah+https://www.blogger.com/profile/10589837671378205837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-86180745586377340432009-04-11T11:31:00.000-04:002009-04-11T11:31:00.000-04:00Hi again,Forgot to say yesterday, I wonder if Rabb...Hi again,<BR/><BR/>Forgot to say yesterday, I wonder if Rabbi Sacks grew up singing Malvina Reynold's song _Magic Penny_ in his synagogue youth group as I did --<BR/><BR/>Love is something if you give it away, give it away, give it away, Love is something if you give it away, you end up having more.DeanBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13314460920173552547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-25483714125367410012009-04-11T11:13:00.000-04:002009-04-11T11:13:00.000-04:00I think both you and your son have it right.I think both you and your son have it right.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88950653495263818642009-04-11T09:17:00.000-04:002009-04-11T09:17:00.000-04:00In conversation with my son who agrees this draft ...In conversation with my son who agrees this draft is deeply flawed and cannot pass, I said that a covenant that said what we might do together might be a good thing. This document on the other hand is about who can be among us and that is a bad thing. <BR/><BR/>The CDG has failed and this document is its failure writ plain. <BR/> It is all about boundaries and barriers -- letting in the self-processed holy and keeping the bad people out. Every draft tries to hide what they are about in different weasel language but it is still there. <BR/><BR/>Better to say 'we affirm the Lambeth Quadrilateral among ourselves' and be done. Then recall that we are a <I>missionary</I> society and start proclaiming freedom in places like the Southern Cone where it is not being done.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimB<BR/><BR/>(The security word is 'bortr' and that makes sense, bortr's' (giver or take) is what the CDG is about.<BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-52114509537805146352009-04-10T14:46:00.000-04:002009-04-10T14:46:00.000-04:00DeanB - I agree with your statement, which I think...DeanB - I agree with your statement, which I think is the essential problem. We talk about Covenant, but what we are getting form the CDG is a contract. If it is to be a Covenant, then I would argue that what we need is a Covenant of "faith" - not "fate."Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-89180517004183074612009-04-10T14:37:00.000-04:002009-04-10T14:37:00.000-04:00There are have been times in history when agreemen...There are have been times in history when agreements couldn’t be reached and covenants were out of the question. 1776 is one that leaps to mind. There was no going back. Freedom had been tasted and it was sweet. We have seen that over and over again in the course of our history. Slavery was left in the muddy ruts of the Civil War and some years later, women hung up their aprons and went to the polls. Again, freedom was sweet and there was no going back.<BR/><BR/>Gays are now out of the closets and they too are tasting the sweetness of freedom and acceptance. The states are beginning to fall in line with same sex marriage. Several of the religious faiths are accepting women in the priesthood. Many of those same faiths are accepting gay men and women in the clergy. There is no going back. The closets have been torn down. Some issues are not open to dispute and freedom is one of them. <BR/><BR/>They can talk and debate and delay all they want. It will not move backward. It will continue to move forward. No woman cleric, no gay man and no lesbian will ever give up those sweet liberties so valiantly fought for.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09718610632066433593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-18341961435313998632009-04-10T11:59:00.000-04:002009-04-10T11:59:00.000-04:00Hi Rev. Keaton,Thanks for the link to Rabbi Sacks'...Hi Rev. Keaton,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link to Rabbi Sacks' talk. It's valuable reading for all people of good will.<BR/><BR/>Looks to me, though, as if the distinction which is relevant to the Anglican Covenant is not the distinction between two types of covenant but between a covenant and a contract.DeanBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13314460920173552547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50643673317723868422009-04-10T10:25:00.000-04:002009-04-10T10:25:00.000-04:00Elizabeth, Rabbi Sacks contrast between a covenant...Elizabeth, Rabbi Sacks contrast between a covenant of fate v. a covenant of faith says it all.<BR/><BR/>As I said at Mark Harris' place, "If I had a vote, I would vote 'no' to the Covenant. No good will come of it. I pray the Episcopal Church does not sign on, no matter what changes or clarifications are made to the document."<BR/><BR/><I>If we need an Covenant in the Anglican Communion, I believe it needs to be one of faith - made by people who share dreams, aspirations and ideals. A covenant needs to express a common hope, and be defined by what we commit ourselves to.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>This was never what the Covenant Design<BR/>Group had in mind. Or so it seems to me.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com