tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post985452563551971479..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: Raising the DeadElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-84679376567248609622010-11-02T17:00:46.898-04:002010-11-02T17:00:46.898-04:00This thread has certainly grown.
First of all, my...This thread has certainly grown.<br /><br />First of all, my use of "hostess" wasn't meant to offend. I suppose I'm showing my age. My unmarried nephews give the same groan when I address their birthday cards with "Master First Last Name." I will use "host" in the future.<br /><br />The subject of my comment was this one paragraph:<br /><br />"I'm coming to see that Open Communion is precisely what Jesus intended - indeed, what the ancient church practiced in the first few centuries of its life, before those who followed Jesus were not called Christians but 'People of The Way.'"<br /><br />Once again, is there a single bit of Patristic or even non-Patristic early Christian or semi-Christian writings that indicates that the Christian communities of the first centuries practiced open communion? <br /><br />It is the ahistorical assertion that I object to here. Otherwise I would have passed by this post in silence.<br /><br />FrMichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-15149600622371315142010-10-31T06:53:48.523-04:002010-10-31T06:53:48.523-04:00Walter - what a wonderful way to think about virgi...Walter - what a wonderful way to think about virginity. Thank you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-80212829556034714492010-10-31T01:00:24.684-04:002010-10-31T01:00:24.684-04:00Mother Elizabeth,
A prayerful Word about virginit...Mother Elizabeth,<br /><br />A prayerful Word about virginity: Inspired by some of the writing of Gregory of Nissa I pray that the One who has purified all the faculties of his/her own soul from the vices of racism classicism and homophobia reveals himself/herself the subject of objective who is beautiful uniquely thanks to his/her own nature and who is the causality of every beauty and every good. Like the eye liberated from the tares sees to shine that which is found in the air so the soul, thanks to the purity,owns the faculty to think of that light: the sound of genuine virginity. Raising the dead is a radical, mysterious, joyful part of a Sacramental life in Jesus. In the name of the One who keeps us centered and focused and truthful, Jesus the Christ.<br /><br />Buffalo Shepherdwalterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02888384403637148260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-13853647785892815322010-10-30T21:19:59.355-04:002010-10-30T21:19:59.355-04:00Bateau - Thanks for your comments and for your que...Bateau - Thanks for your comments and for your question. It's a good one. Is the Eucharist supposed to be comforting or transforming? Can it be both at the same time?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-10059152710686559282010-10-30T21:18:36.048-04:002010-10-30T21:18:36.048-04:00Thanks, Gerry. I'm thinking a few of us should...Thanks, Gerry. I'm thinking a few of us should put ourselves up for Title IV charges. Let's get on with it and stop behaving like naughty little boys and girls who think we're getting over on something.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-12587347376921606002010-10-30T20:58:26.797-04:002010-10-30T20:58:26.797-04:00Mathew 18:20 - was the Lords word on the subject a...Mathew 18:20 - was the Lords word on the subject and thus He puts fretting over Apostolic succession in its proper perspective. Anything added later by men is just bureaucracy.<br /><br />That said ... why do I find the Eucharistic Liturgy so comforting?Bateau Masterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641991475361553674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-79717223641004498352010-10-30T19:50:47.339-04:002010-10-30T19:50:47.339-04:00Incredible Post!!!
We have celebrated an open tab...Incredible Post!!!<br /><br />We have celebrated an open table through two rectors and two interims inviting all to come forward to Christ's table.<br /><br />We offer the Bread and the Cup (or an intinction cup) or a Blessing -- your choice -- not ours; all we ask is that you cross your arms if you prefer the Blessing. I offer the Blessing in the name of the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer.<br /><br />I think the legalists could nail me at least two or more canons, but there are too many people out there hungering and thirsting for the good news...gerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09992216957664459649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-72728172360360565722010-10-29T15:20:24.074-04:002010-10-29T15:20:24.074-04:00["FrMichael" (assuming he is the same on...["FrMichael" (assuming he is the same one) is a Popoid priest in Oakland CA, who has in the past REVELLED in the role his denomination has played in outlawing marriage between loving couples of the same sex (i.e., PropH8). He comments occasionally at Tobias Haller's blog. From a recent post there, I thought there was a <i>slight</i> sign that he was mellowing in his Popoid misogyny. His post here, unfortunately, is more typical. Pray for him---he needs it!]<br /><br />The comparison of Open Communion to DADT is very apt, IMO. <br /><br />In my experience, most Episcopal priests do it, and even more don't push against it . . . and yet the reticence to publicly resist and/or change the canons is palpable.<br /><br />I think TEC still has a fear of the "FrMichaels" of the world: Popoids, and other hard(of heart)liners, who would excoriate us . . . for doing what we (rightly!) believe Jesus would have us do (and for which Biblical/Early Church proofs AGAINST are, in someone's words, "risible").<br /><br />I believe that when the Gospel is proclaimed, the <i>natural</i> reaction will be ala the Holy Ethiopean Eunuch: "What is to prevent me from being baptized?" NOWHERE does that demand that holy communion (feeding on Christ) might not be PART of that Gospel Proclamation. [Equally risible: the idea that Open Communion would somehow create a disincentive to baptism. Puh-leez!]<br /><br />TEC <i>needs to Come Out</i>. Christ invites ALL to his table. We KNOW (most of us) that we shouldn't create human-invented stumbling blocks to the Godly Grub. Let's SAY so, for heaven's sake!JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-50848207531592158212010-10-29T13:16:09.921-04:002010-10-29T13:16:09.921-04:00One of the additional arguments I make for giving ...One of the additional arguments I make for giving my Quaker friend communion is that she has taken communion from the bishop and Katherine Jefferts Schori because they didn't know but I'm supposed to be the enforcer, hard ass because i know, because I've bothered to get to know her. What a perverse set of incentives to keep people at arms length because you might find out.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16855171851801011788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-81721311452273974372010-10-29T12:31:34.872-04:002010-10-29T12:31:34.872-04:00Word on the street is one of the "classic&quo...Word on the street is one of the "classic" questions asked of candidates for ordination by COM's is, "if you knew someone was unbaptized, would you give them communion?" The classic, "Do you want me to say the "right" answer, or "my" answer?" question.<br /><br />Yet we are not asked to produce our Baptismal Homeland Security card at the rail.<br /><br />I've always thought to myself, "Well, like if someone tells the clergy that AT the rail, you'd bless them but not commune them...but like if that's well, old news...how do you know? How do you know your aunt didn't scurry you away against your parents' wishes and never told anyone? Even when someone thinks they weren't, what do you remember before age 3? Not much. Without the piece of paper, you don't know if you were, or weren't."<br /><br />But it is always something that there are lots of things in the Canons we say we do, but aside from what you bring up about DADT, there's a lot we just don't know, and we act as if they are because we truly don't know, even when we think we "know."<br /><br />These are the kinds of thoughts I can spin in my head for weeks.<br /><br />As for your anonymous troll and the use of the word "hostess," well, a Hostess Bakery product comes to mind...the Ding Dong. (sly grin...)Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-75786436084693713732010-10-29T12:19:31.204-04:002010-10-29T12:19:31.204-04:00Thanks, Lou. Come back and visit any time.Thanks, Lou. Come back and visit any time.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-34576042439975668162010-10-29T12:16:12.235-04:002010-10-29T12:16:12.235-04:00Dear Elizabeth,
I read and was very deeply moved -...Dear Elizabeth,<br />I read and was very deeply moved - to the point of tears - by the conversion story told in Sara Miles' book. And that brings me to my point. At it's depth, the sacraments are about raising the dead. Sara's being raised, you're being raised, I am being raised from all kinds of dying to new life. I don't want to argue about Open Communion. I'd rather we share our resurrection stories, acknowledge the world's inchoate hunger for eucharistic bread, and challenge structures that stand in the way of those sacramental grace moments.<br /><br />Very soon after the apostolic era "The Way" became "The Church." These discussions are the ongoing accounting of the gains and losses. Let's be honest on both sides of the ledger.<br />Lou Poulain, a member of the vast fourth order of ministry, in Sunnyvale CAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-21304226424991964072010-10-29T12:11:03.028-04:002010-10-29T12:11:03.028-04:00Good for you, Paul and thank you for sharing your ...Good for you, Paul and thank you for sharing your story with such honesty.<br /><br />It's messy, isn't it? Just the way theology ought to be.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-54818976266302750612010-10-29T11:53:15.647-04:002010-10-29T11:53:15.647-04:00I remember passionate debates on this topic in the...I remember passionate debates on this topic in the 90s with people that I knew loved each other crying on one side and red in the face on the other. At that time I came down squarely on the side of the canonical tradition. The cathedral explicitly practiced open communion at ordinations no less. We eventually had a rather open invitation printed in our bulletins also. And at one point I gave Communion to a visiting imam. I broke a canon in our tradition; he committed heresy in his. It was after 9/11 and I can live with myself. It is not difficult for me to see validity on both sides of the open communion debate, yet I know where I am in practice.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090720645937634051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-81399059451660855582010-10-29T10:51:00.683-04:002010-10-29T10:51:00.683-04:00Hey, Lauren. (You knew I would use that picture yo...Hey, Lauren. (You knew I would use that picture you sent me, right?).<br /><br />What was it Sara kept saying? It's not about being comfortable with what you're doing - it's about having integrity.<br /><br />I hope to always have the courage to at least question the canons that keep us safe at our own peril.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-56593047452765001432010-10-29T10:47:47.532-04:002010-10-29T10:47:47.532-04:00Dahveed, my darling. I'm sorry if I was short ...Dahveed, my darling. I'm sorry if I was short with you. Truth be told, I haven't read any theologians who have written any books on this. I'm still just feeling my way through my thoughts into all of this. If anyone knows of any text that is helpful, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it. I know St. G's writes a great deal, and Sara's books are WONDERFUL, but I don't know of any theological texts out of the academy.<br /><br />As I said to "Anonymous" Fr. Michael, scripture is the final authority for me in this. The confusing part, I think, is that we overlay our church structures and ecclesiological/liturgical assumptions and expectations on what was happening in the time of Jesus. <br /><br />To argue from the tradition and history of the church is to make a slam-dunk argument against Open Communion. To argue from the actions we read of Jesus or of the (Un-ordained, ahem) of some of the early disciples/apostles/followers with some of the (unbaptized, ahem) people, is to make a slam-dunk argument for Open Communion. <br /><br />Me? I'm following Jesus and His motley crew.<br /><br />I think it was Joan Gancey who said, "I never trust a woman who hasn't been fired at least twice."<br /><br />I never trust a priest or bishop who hasn't broken at least two canons.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-12336001345397218652010-10-29T10:39:11.744-04:002010-10-29T10:39:11.744-04:00Elaine - Interesting. If we can have a "theol...Elaine - Interesting. If we can have a "theology statement and liturgy" for blessing covenants, and that's okay, why is it not okay for Open Communion? Thanks for your comments. Very helpful.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-53426970382982383782010-10-29T10:37:40.275-04:002010-10-29T10:37:40.275-04:00Fr. Michael. I am not a "hostess". I am ...Fr. Michael. I am not a "hostess". I am a priest who blogs. But, I suspect you don't believe that either. Women ordained priest by Jesus are not in scripture, right? Well, guess what? Neither did Jesus ordain men as priests. They were appointed disciples. The church, in much later years, began to articulate and canonize the "four orders" of ministry. <br /><br />If scripture isn't the ultimate authority in our lives, what else is?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-54881723872173842202010-10-29T10:34:27.407-04:002010-10-29T10:34:27.407-04:00@ Matthew - I think following Jesus takes as least...@ Matthew - I think following Jesus takes as least as much courage as it does to perform the ministry your friend does. Keep feeding her so she can do her work.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-13885260408782427502010-10-29T10:00:47.650-04:002010-10-29T10:00:47.650-04:00A very insightful blog, Elizabeth! I found myself ...A very insightful blog, Elizabeth! I found myself quite challenged by the inner dialogue of open communion vs. well, canonical communion. <br /><br />There is a huge part of me that thinks loyalty to the canons is so important, and is what keeps us safe. (I'm all about safe these days)<br />But at the same time, I think that one of the models of our Anglican tradition is to reform canon by breaking canon. Shoot, that's basically how we were formed. And in more recent days I find myself more and more grateful for the 11 women, 4 bishops, and unknown number of supporters who "broke the rules" on July 29, 1974...<br /><br />That's all I got for now (I haven't really had coffee yet).<br />-Lauren Kilbourndivinitymonsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465172008368566496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-88198175812136543472010-10-29T08:46:25.548-04:002010-10-29T08:46:25.548-04:00Just to be clear - I was clear that you were not s...Just to be clear - I was clear that you were not speaking of lay presidency.<br /><br />You made a truth claim about open communion; Open Communion is precisely what Jesus intended - indeed, what the ancient church practiced in the first few centuries of its life.<br /><br />Dio Sydney makes a parallel truth claim about lay presidency; lay presidency is precisely what Jesus intended - indeed, what the ancient church practiced in the first few centuries of its life.<br /><br />Because neither are truth claims that I have heard from Piskies, certain Protestants yes, Piskies no, I was merely wondering out loud about a future where both were substantiated enough that they became practice in the AC.<br /><br />Personally, I do not believe that a solid case can be made for either strictly from a New Testament source, Lukan nor Pauline, so I hoped that perhaps you had a corner on some historical material that backs your truth claim.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-61928442599994074832010-10-29T08:33:42.503-04:002010-10-29T08:33:42.503-04:00Last winter the clergy of the diocese of Southern ...Last winter the clergy of the diocese of Southern Ohio had a day with the bishop with 2 topics on the agenda.<br />1) Open Communion & 2) Blessing Same Sex Unions.<br /><br />Our bishop opened with canon law and his position in support of baptism before communion, yet said he wanted to hear from the clergy. In a lively discussion, clergy argued passionately for open communion for the reasons you state. Most said, we do open communion and are not willing to give that it -- we are to feed people. The bishop said he would not change the practice, but wanted us to be real about what canon law says. Eventually the discussion became "we need resources/conversations to enliven our parishes for mission -- instead of concern about open communion." <br /><br />Near the end of the day, someone asked about the other agenda item, blessing same sex unions. All that was said, "a theological statement and liturgy are posted on the diocesan website."Elaine C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02094641269585924122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-91381352681196153922010-10-29T02:32:02.445-04:002010-10-29T02:32:02.445-04:00The idea that the early Church practiced open Comm...The idea that the early Church practiced open Communion is risible. It is no wonder that the hostess here doesn't offer any sources to back up her preposterous assertion, other than a few biblical references that serve as nothing more than red herrings. <br /><br />FrMichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-51625403317870819102010-10-29T00:23:51.838-04:002010-10-29T00:23:51.838-04:00I knowingly and intentionally offer communion to a...I knowingly and intentionally offer communion to a friend not baptized with water. She is a close friend and a deeply committed Quaker -- Quakers do not practice water baptism but believe in baptism of the spirit only. I simply cannot say no in part because she has lived a far more dedicated Christian life than I. She was a missionary for several years in the west bank for the Society of Friends. She is convinced she is a Christian. She does not feel that she would have spent years dodging bullets and helping poor Palestinian children if not for her commitment to Christ. She has absolutely zero interest in getting baptized because she recalls her baptism of the spirit. She is also committed to Quaker theology which is opposed to water baptism. So, why does she sometimes attend an episcopal church? Because her Quaker meeting only meets monthly and is very small here. So, she drops in from time to time. Quakers are also opposed to all creeds and I noticed leading services once that she recited the creed and so I used that as an opening and asked why she recited the creed. Her response was that when she is in our church, she feels better about giving herself over to the whole experience of it that refraining based on intellectualizing theology. This was also her way of telling me in not so many words why she also presents herself for communion. And so I serve her. I simply cannot do otherwise. But she is still a Quaker first and has no current desire to even consider baptism.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16855171851801011788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-8576374981698604672010-10-28T23:45:03.186-04:002010-10-28T23:45:03.186-04:00I suspect that Sara would comment, "And, if a...I suspect that Sara would comment, "And, if a hungry person came to you for food, would you ask her/him why they were asking for food?"<br /><br />I have known people who I have learned I've communicated but were not baptized. Once I asked someone, "Why" and they looked at me like, "Are you kidding?! Why would you ask why?" I never did it again.<br /><br />I started asking, "I'm just wondering if you understand what's happening here." I got the answer, "Do you? Do you really understand what's happening here?"<br /><br />I stopped doing that. Now, I don't ask questions. I just say, "When you're ready to talk about baptism,and what it means, and the connection between baptism and Eucharist, come and see me." <br /><br />And, I keep feeding them until they do. Never had anyone not come see me for baptism. Some just take longer than others.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.com