tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post1321445222596051991..comments2024-03-23T18:50:32.902-04:00Comments on Telling Secrets: Ashes to stayElizabeth Kaetonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-38259361212823506412012-02-28T21:55:57.520-05:002012-02-28T21:55:57.520-05:00Ah, you were there long after I had left - about 1...Ah, you were there long after I had left - about 11 years later. I was there last year, just about this time, as a Proctor Scholar. I, like you, love, love, LOVE EDS. What an amazing place.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-5500442852790761442012-02-28T21:17:26.936-05:002012-02-28T21:17:26.936-05:00I was at Ed'S from 1997 to 2001 (I took the fo...I was at Ed'S from 1997 to 2001 (I took the four year plan as I worked multiple jobs equaling full time and had a teenage daughter). I stayed on an extra year to do some post-grad study in liturgical theology. <br />Those were golden years. Although far from trouble-free, I was truly madly deeply happy. I loved studying, learning, teaching, preaching, leading, collaborating, scrapping, reconciling, worshiping, chanting, singing, holding and being held, celebrating, and mourning. In short, I was fully alive and was able to use my (sometimes dubious) gifts and passions in ways that were meaningful and appreciated. I was pushed and pulled. I resisted and yielded. I grew in ways I never could have imagined. Lord, how I miss the synergy of that sweet community, especially having been there during something of a Golden Age, with a full, vibrant faculty, the presence of my dear friends at Weston Jesuit, and terrific peers. Sigh....Jackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944293203681922985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-31487275122146309062012-02-28T21:10:16.572-05:002012-02-28T21:10:16.572-05:00Thanks, Jackie. I think we definitely could use mo...Thanks, Jackie. I think we definitely could use more of those Lavender Sachets in cyberspace - on both sides of any issue.<br /><br />When where you at ED'S Place? ;~)Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-57423405244139605982012-02-28T17:50:51.880-05:002012-02-28T17:50:51.880-05:00Elizabeth,
Let me--as a fellow EDS alum--to thank...Elizabeth, <br />Let me--as a fellow EDS alum--to thank you for this wonderful blog. I just started reading it, and find the discourse refreshingly bright and kind. I can use some practice in the latter virtue, and propose that we start The Order of the Lavender Sachet to spread good will among those with whom we have disagreement. It would be so much more pleasant than suggesting doors meet posteriors!Jackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944293203681922985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-12919493427843430142012-02-28T17:41:18.829-05:002012-02-28T17:41:18.829-05:00Jackie - I don't know if Sydney permits it YET...Jackie - I don't know if Sydney permits it YET but they have been very vocal in promoting the idea.<br /><br />I think I'm going to start making Lavender sachets and handing them out to folks like Michael who stop by from time to time and drop a few uber-conservative bombs and then duck and run.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-25146666068893977652012-02-28T12:27:39.841-05:002012-02-28T12:27:39.841-05:00Lovely reply to Michael, Elizabeth. And to add to ...Lovely reply to Michael, Elizabeth. And to add to the CORRECTED list of abominations, I do believe that it is the arch-conservative diocese of Sydney, Australia that rather oddly permits and promotes lay presidency :)<br /><br />I wish for you, Michael, a blessed Lent and a nice lavender sachet for under your pillow; I find the scent promotes peaceful thoughts and sound rest.Jackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944293203681922985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-63554265133339488682012-02-28T12:12:38.874-05:002012-02-28T12:12:38.874-05:00Michael, Michael, Michael! You know, your hyperbol...Michael, Michael, Michael! You know, your hyperbole gives conservatives a bad name. Indeed, you might just one day be mistaken for a flamer. Sit down. Take a deep breath. Put some cucumber slices on your eyes and a hot towel over them. Then, have a nice, hot cup of tea. The sky is NOT falling because a few well intentioned Christians are involved in "Ashes to Go". BTW, and FYI: the RC's have been doing this for years and years and YEARS!!!!Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-71283066463846375152012-02-27T22:00:39.099-05:002012-02-27T22:00:39.099-05:00Ashes to go?
Is there any Christian belief, pract...Ashes to go?<br /><br />Is there any Christian belief, practice, or custom that TEC cannot trivialize? <br /><br />Granted, this ashes thing is small potatoes compared to unbelieving bishops (e.g. Spong), truncated sacraments, women's ordination, same-sex marriage, lay presidency at the Eucharist, communion to the unbaptized, and the like. Is there anything beyond the reductionalist drive of TECsters?<br /><br />xxMichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-67341891127108862602012-02-25T16:49:03.085-05:002012-02-25T16:49:03.085-05:00@Rev Dr Mom,
Ashes are not formally "sacrame...@Rev Dr Mom,<br /><br />Ashes are not formally "sacramental," so there is no Canonical restriction as to their imposition. That is the structural answer. They are simple, portable, and can be imposed by any order of ministry. If one were to perform baptism and/or eucharist to go, not only would one be degrading those sacraments, but one would also be violating the Canons (assuming one is subject to the Canons or disciplines of a particular denomination).Jackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944293203681922985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-2978851802670772032012-02-25T16:34:39.661-05:002012-02-25T16:34:39.661-05:00RevDrMom - You're never too late to a discussi...RevDrMom - You're never too late to a discussion here. You ask a good question. I remember hearing somewhere that the two highest attended services of the year are Palm Sunday and Ash Wednesday. The writer posited that the reason was due to the fact that people leave the church with visible and tangible evidence that they had, in fact, come to church. <br /><br />That raises my suspicion about the reason people come to have ashes "imposed" on their heads. Is it "spiritual" or is it personal "PR" for their own spirituality? <br /><br />I don't know. But, I suspect you would hear howls of outrage if we started "Eucharist to go" or "Baptism to go". <br /><br />I think I'll be asking this question next year.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-87539839678622129582012-02-25T14:45:00.370-05:002012-02-25T14:45:00.370-05:00Thanks for this great discussion,mto which I am ob...Thanks for this great discussion,mto which I am obviously late. Much of my discomfort and ponderings about this have been articulated here. But the one big thing for me is, "Why ashes?" I mean out of all the wonderful things we do in the church, why this one? In the totally grand scheme of things, the imposition of ashes is relatively minor. Would we be comfortable with Eucharist to go? Baptism to go? How about doing Morning Prayer on the subway platform? <br /><br />I do think it is worth thinking about why people are so receptive to the ashes. Of course some of them are church goers who don't have time to get to a service, but I'd guess that many are people who rarely if ever darken the door of a church. Why are ashes compelling to them? How else/what else can we offer to people on the street to really convey what is so important to us and to feed the hunger than is clearly there?Rev Dr Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14686528826414330355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-79237275007917170732012-02-25T13:48:34.595-05:002012-02-25T13:48:34.595-05:00Thanks, Jackie. I think the "Ashes to Go"...Thanks, Jackie. I think the "Ashes to Go" does disservice to what I hear its proponents offering.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-33900896098776333652012-02-25T11:05:08.151-05:002012-02-25T11:05:08.151-05:00Thanks Elizabeth. You did a beautiful job articula...Thanks Elizabeth. You did a beautiful job articulating my queasiness with this practice (I am not a radical open table fan either, but that is another multi-volume set!). <br /><br />Part of my disquiet revolved around the trite phrase, "to go." What about "Ashes to the world," or something that made the practice seem thoughtful rather than trivial? Reading through the comments, the practice makes more sense if a church already has a street presence. But the random, out-of-context presence of people in albs with little bowls of burnt palms seems showy and cheap.<br /><br />We need to embrace who we are, and while being welcoming and inclusive is an essential part of our call, we must also remain true to who and what we are, otherwise we will, like Yeats falcon, turn and turn in a widening gyre until we cannot hear our falconer, and thing will fall apart as the center can no longer hold.Jackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944293203681922985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-59096873025343276262012-02-24T08:32:14.668-05:002012-02-24T08:32:14.668-05:00JCF - I agree that that's part of the turnoff....JCF - I agree that that's part of the turnoff. Sounds like McChurch.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-72779314006438961652012-02-24T08:06:28.985-05:002012-02-24T08:06:28.985-05:00Mark - That's a great philosophy that easily t...Mark - That's a great philosophy that easily translates into a theology of work and the human enterprise.<br /><br />Would that more people hear you.<br /><br />Thank you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-35817474849190147142012-02-24T00:02:07.586-05:002012-02-24T00:02:07.586-05:00My objection on the "to go" thing is mor...My objection on the "to go" thing is more philosophical, I suppose, than theological.<br /><br />Given that the Church should be leading the resistance to the valueless values of the materialistic world, it seems to me catering to quicker turn-around is the most direct and culpable way of contributing to the corrupting effects of just that person-devaluing corruption.<br /><br />We need to encourage time for the things that enrich us as individuals, not subordinate them to work, the making-and-spending of wealth, the obsessive/addictive "entertainments," and - most of all - the entirely human construct of the schedule, time - running to-and-fro as slaves to a clock, which brings us to a worldview which makes us cogs, rather than clockmakers.<br /><br />To take time is to be human.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-10210878545913580112012-02-23T22:32:04.559-05:002012-02-23T22:32:04.559-05:00I like the practice of Ashes-to-Go, better than th...I like the <i>practice</i> of Ashes-to-Go, better than the name.<br /><br />[Natch, I got my ashes in the midst of Eucharist]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-40622028531273599712012-02-23T21:09:59.067-05:002012-02-23T21:09:59.067-05:00Kirke - I would be happy with a theology and a pro...Kirke - I would be happy with a theology and a protocol with some basic components, allowing for lots of flexibility for local implementation. And, I'd love to see an impact study to address some of the questions you raise.<br /><br />I'm not holding my breath.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-60309431834322414902012-02-23T16:55:31.962-05:002012-02-23T16:55:31.962-05:00Well, and as you know, I am on the other side of t...Well, and as you know, I am on the other side of this discussion (I don't have a problem with "Ashes to Go" in the simplest abstract form--except for the name itself, where I do feel it sounds too "fast food") but I have some thoughts: 1. What else is happening to invite the recipients into deeper relationship? (If the answer is "nothing," I don't like that. 2. That said, I think it's important to trust the Holy Spirit to know the Holy Spirit's business in individual cases. 3. Five years from now, I would like to have a hand count of people who ended up in the church because of this experience, and I would like to hear what they have to say.<br /><br />My gut feeling is this is the dance we always do between the secular and the sacred, which means there is going to be discomfort on both sides of the fence. I've been following this one for three Ash Wednesdays now, and I'm ready to see some data and hear some stories. Otherwise, like you said, we're not moving the conversation forward.Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-7636017784186095152012-02-23T16:36:43.660-05:002012-02-23T16:36:43.660-05:00Amen, Kirke. Except, I do care about more than con...Amen, Kirke. Except, I do care about more than conversation. I'm not asking for uniformity. I'm asking for clarity and consistency in theology and function.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-7818069063630401842012-02-23T16:35:42.206-05:002012-02-23T16:35:42.206-05:00Jeffri - I think the answer to your question is in...Jeffri - I think the answer to your question is in your first statement: It was done in the context of your church's presence in the community on days other than Ash Wednesday.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-86270098073457398652012-02-23T16:34:39.269-05:002012-02-23T16:34:39.269-05:00Hutch - I think the past generation of clergy have...Hutch - I think the past generation of clergy have really failed us by not doing good catechetics. And, I would venture to add that I think the big problem in TEC today is that we don't know who we are because of that. We reap what we sow.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-57248025294512479552012-02-23T14:29:32.442-05:002012-02-23T14:29:32.442-05:00I know this much. I think in the last three years...I know this much. I think in the last three years, "Ashes to Go" has sparked more press inches about Ash Wednesday than I've ever seen in my entire life--and if doing it is only to continue the conversation about "how do we bring the church to a hurting world," and "what do we do or say to bring them in the door as a result of this or any activity in the streets?" I really don't care who likes Ashes to Go or not--but I do care we keep the conversation flowing!Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-21038263035566319402012-02-23T10:40:16.292-05:002012-02-23T10:40:16.292-05:00The priest of my parish and I stood on the sidewal...The priest of my parish and I stood on the sidewalk outside the neighborhood Dunkin Donuts from 6:50 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. This is the same place where she holds an open table for an hour or so four afternoons a week, so it was done in the context of our parish's presence in the neighborhood. <br /><br />Each person of the dozen or so people that stoppe for ashes was offered an opportunity for prayer and given a leaflet (in Spanish and English) with prayers for the whole season of Lent. Some shared a story with us--including one who shared a story but did not receive ashes. I know that for each of them it was a moving experience in one way or another.<br /><br />We also had a service in English at midday and a bilingual service in the evening. Were the folks that attended those services truly any more connected than those who received on the sidewalk in the morning?Jeffri Harrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06461994557670902616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29373297.post-11912779194349566622012-02-23T09:58:07.276-05:002012-02-23T09:58:07.276-05:00Having just left an Episcopal church where the pri...Having just left an Episcopal church where the prior rector did a lot of "to go" kind of thing - I wonder as well. We found an entire congregation that didn't know much about the Episcopal Church and didn't want to - they were "their church" and didn't need to be anything else. We ran into a lot of anger in trying to teach why we do things - a congregation that said they really didn't care, they did them this way and always had - and a strange mix of things it was - and not the least bit interested in looking at any mission work and seeing if it could be grown instead of sitting in its old form forever. I still have a lot of anger at that rector for leaving a congregation in the "to go" mindset. For the pain we suffered in walking into that minefield with no knowledge of the mines. I don't know, Elizabeth - "to go" may be okay if you understand the theology behind it - but I went and got my ashes in church, said the prayers WITH the people and came home holy. So, a little rant and a little sadness - probably appropriate for Lent.Hutchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14017047075501507818noreply@blogger.com