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Thursday, March 15, 2007

What would it take?

Note: Ann Fontaine, good friend, sister clergy, intrepid deputy and President of the Standing Committee of the Diocese of Wyoming posted the following on the House of Bishops and Deputies LISTSERV. I found it fascinating, if not informative. EK+

Lest you think that the reasserters (or whatever they are called these days) will ever be satisfied with TEC --- think again -- this is from David Virtue's site. I know - VOA is home to the most dissatisfied but it is my experience from dealing with this fringe of the church - they will suck the life out of the church and leave us with nothing. Although this thread was started in 2005 - Nothing has changed for them. Ann

Posted on: 2005/3/18 12:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/1/10
From: Klaipeda, Lithuania
Posts: 1122

What would it take?

A large number of people on this site are upset with the ECUSA and describe it as apostate, heretical, or with any number of other adjectives. So, I thought I would ask this question to foster discussion:

What would it take for you to be happy with the ECUSA again? Resignation of Griswold? Removal of Robinson? Promise not to allow same-sex blessings?

What would it take?

Please be specific in your answers. Obviously, requirements like "following the Bible" is too vague, since some of us believe they are following the Bible right now.
I would be interested in seeing everyones laundry lists.
Kevin A. Wilson
Lithuania Christian College
filicitas catulus calidus est


Depose VG. Robinson, and other bishops or clergy who intiated divorce for reason other than immorality.

Depose all bishops and clergy who mate with the same sex.

Reduce all female clergy to the role of deaconess with no duties of presbyter.

Replace Frank Griswold with Bishop Duncan.

Discard the 1979 so called Book of Common Prayer, replacing it with the 1662 or 1928 Book.

Start each Holy Communion with the Decalogue.

Proclaim the Thirtynine Articles of Religion are not just interesting reading, but are to be adhered to. Explain transubstantiation to the congregations at least once per year, preferably Easter Sunday.

Stop supporting Muslim factions/countries who practice blowing up others in the name of Allah.

I would like to see divorced and remarried bishops deposed, but would be satisfied to see them shoved aside by the appointment of a proper Coadjutor Bishop to provide for parishes upset with a bishop selected in violation of I Timothy 3.

As for same-sex mating, I am sure it has happened before in history, but what cannot be tolerated is the open practice of a clear violation of Biblical mandates. Contumacious and unrepentent homosexual activity should bring ouster of the bishop or priest.

Without any judgment on its rightness or wrongness, the consecration of women bishops goes against so many practical concerns that it should be stopped and a proper Coadjutor Bishop selected.

Griswold must be ousted, certainly, but we could hardly expect ECUSA to replace him with someone representing only one-eighth of their membership. Someone like the conservative candidate they overlooked would do, like Bishop Wimberly of Texas.

*Repentence for GC2003 and distortion of traditional sexual morality, but only as a start!

*Defrocking all bishops and priests who can't say the Nicean Creed without crossing their fingers behind their backs.

*Purging the faculties of 10 out of the 11 ECUSA seminaries (guess who gets left alone)

*Purging the 39 Articles of all 16th Century errors (this should leave us with about 5 articles, which is plenty)

*Replacing the '79 AND the '28 Prayer Books with the 'Anglican Service Book' in all parishes

*Publicly burning all copies of the Revised Common Lectionary

*Ceasing all experimentation with new worship forms for at least 100 years

*Shutting down 815

*Repudiating Full Communion with the ELCA

*Establishing Full Communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople

Billy Graham preaching in the National Cathedral and Griswold and Robinson go forward at the altar call (a Baptist's dream!).

OK, but they need to be in hair shirts, performing self-flagellation with cat-o-nine-tails, while crawling on their bellies up the centre aisle crying out the whip and scourge of a number of Dantean purgatorial cornices before walking through fire on the way to the altar.

Or, truly practice admission of error, repentance, and reparation to the ECUSA and AC!

Clergy at all levels must stop treating the Bible as literature subject to literary criticism.

If I had one request, it would be that the 'liberal' wing would go back and reassess their faith. I would ask that they assess whether they believe in the Enlightenment, its science and rationalism, more than they do in Scripture and Tradition. I believe that if honest men and women in that camp would sit and look at the requirements of the faith, for example through the lens of the Creeds, then they would find that they are not truly in agreement. Then they could go their separate way, OR perhaps they would learn from those of us who still believe in miracles, and come back to the faith.

2003 > Robinson
2006 > Schori
Reverse this trend, that's what it would take.



OK ... I'm going to look up "Contumacious" and then I'll get back to you.


Bill said...

Contumacious: flagrantly insubordinate or rebellious.

This is very scary stuff. These folks really need a place to call their own; a place, where the wind blows free, where you can get a good fire going to burn the local witches. They need to roll back the clock to a time when the sun revolved around the earth; where science was a dirty word, where medicine was leeches and blood letting. They really need strict adherence to the biblical word. Of course the biblical word would be in Latin or Greek because it would once again be forbidden to print a bible in the vernacular. Yes, back to the good old times with famine, disease and prayer as the only recourse to the ills of man.

Are these people out of their ever loving minds???

MarkBrunson said...

It is scary, and it's what I think fuels the anti-Americanism in the AC. I've explicated it elsewhere at length (and no claim to great learning), but, essentially, they see ecclesial imperialism enacted on us, what else could they expect of TEC on them? Better to stick to a conservative Devil-You-Know.

Deborah Sproule said...

Scary and sad for sure. I am angry at those faceless authories that abuse and oppress others just because of differences of values. Then I am shocked to see actual human evidence that there are some in my circle who agree with the oppressive statements expressed here. Finally I am thankful that a liberal christian proposed a bridge to their dark side so that I may try to have compassion for their souls. Darkness can only lead to violence when silence of dark souls is imposed. Saying "hatred" is far more healthy than covertly acting on hatred. Therefore let us reach out to those in the dark, willing to listen to them, so that we may be evidence of Christ Alive in the World. God have mercy.

W said...

Ann: "they will suck the life out of the church and leave us with nothing."

Wrong. They will won't suck the life out of this church, because we won't let them. And besides that, they'll probably leave, anyway.

I'm going to repost some of that material on my blog, though. It's absolutely priceless.

episcopalifem said...

I don't think TEC can adequately serve the pastoral needs of these two divergent groups.

There needs to be a separation of these vehemently opposed peoples one from another.

A decision should be made, and all invited to come along or go, as the individuals see fit to do so: this includes individuals who are clergy as well as lay people.

Anglicanism houses ambiguity by definition. If you are someone who needs more structure, and who needs to know that everyone believes as you believe, and you feel abandoned by this church, go find one that will suit your spiritual needs, and work on getting close to God within the parameters that work for you.

Allow the healing within your spiritual life that you deserve.

To keep engaging these hateful people into dialouge is like cajoling a tantruming child. It does NOTHING to stop the behavior.

I left the RCC because the vehicle got in the way of my relationship of God. I have first hand experience in what I am recommending. Fly. Be Free.